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Ravrick

D.E. Jones Ox & Bucks LI transfer to MGC - Which Bn & when?

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Ravrick

Hi,

I am researching my Great Uncle Dennis Edward Jones who initially served as 22298 Pte DE Jones Ox & Bucks LI, he then changed to 160686 Pte in the Machine Gun Corps, until demob in 1919. He is entitled to the BWM & Victory medal. Thus far I can find no service papers or any reference as to which Bn of the OBLI he transferred from. Can anybody help with:

 

Which theatre of war was he serving in?

The Bn from which he transferred?

Which MGC until did he move to?

Any guidance as to where I might find out more info.

 

Thanks in advance,

Rick

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roughdiamond

Have you looked at the medal rolls for his OBLI Bn?

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George Rayner

Doesn't appear to mention the battalion number on either set

 

George

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Langdon

Looking for close numbers on Ancestry, there's 22306 Joseph Zand (in the Pension records) who joined up in Dec 1915, joining the O&BLI 3rd Reserve Bn in Jan 1916 - but I can't make out which battalion he then joined.

And there's MGC 160688 William Marden (in the Service records) who was 16431 O&BLI, joining the 3rd reserve Bn before embarking at Marseilles and disembarking at Salonika in November 1915. Could be 7th or 8th Bn? He transferred to MGC with that close number to your man in June 1918..

 

Mike

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PRC

Might be worth checking out nearby service numbers to see if they shed any light.

 

For a starter try

OBLI

22298 ----

22300 Jonathan Bowers then 42611 Worcesters. Silver War Badge MiC looks like enlisted on 11th December 1915 – I could only find the watermarked version on the National Archive, not the unwatermarked version on Ancestry.

22301 Charles E Shepherd then 142102 Machine Gun Corps.

22303 Leonard J Wyatt then 42645 Worcesters.

22304 William Sharpe then 416225 Labour Corps.

22306 Joseph Zand

 

Duty calls – will post more later

 

Peter

Edited by PRC

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charlie962
2 hours ago, Langdon said:

And there's MGC 160688 William Marden (in the Service records) who was 16431 O&BLI, joining the 3rd reserve Bn before embarking at Marseilles and disembarking at Salonika in November 1915. Could be 7th or 8th Bn? He transferred to MGC with that close number to your man in June 1918..

Similarly there is a PG Holloway 16425 8th OBLI trfd to MGC as 160682 on 28/6/1918 in UK and went to France with 63 (RN?) MG Bn in Oct 1918

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PRC

Part 2

22289 Charles Long also Royal Engineers 461483 / 184333 / T 3923 (don’t know in which order)

22290 Alfred J Plant

22291 Edward Shrimpton then 72627 West Yorks

22293 Harold Blake

22295 Alfred Harding then 285001 Ox & Bucks LI

 

Machine Gun Corps

 

16080 William Gemmell, previously 28464 OBLI

160681 William Hazell, previously 8671 OBLI – also SWB Roll. First landed France 26/05/1915.

160682 Percy G Holloway, previously 16425 OBLI. First landed France 18/09/1915.

160683 Henry Hudson, previously 33481 OBLI

160684 Donovan G Hughes, previously 34127 OBLI – also SWB Roll

160686 Dennis Edward Jones

160687 Walter Kemp, previously 13704 OBLI – also on SWB Roll. First landed France 21/09/1915.

160688 William H Mardon, previously 16431 OBLI. First landed France 18/09/1915.

160689 John F Moffatt, previously 29113 OBLI.

160690 John D Mason, previously 28475 OBLI.

160691 William Owens, previously 15076 OBLI. First landed France 21/09/1915.

 

Initial thoughts:-

-        Potentially a Derby Scheme man.

-        Potentially this was the machine section of the relevant OBLI Battalion, (7th or 8th ?) given that the list is alphabetical order who was transferred en masse to the Machine Gun Corps when their Division created a Machine Gun Company. Both units were part of the 26th Division and the Long, Long Trail, has the Machine Gun Companies being formed on the 22nd July 1916. The Machine Gun Section of the 7th OBLI went into the 78th Machine Gun Company, but the 8th OBLI as Divisional Pioneers won’t have had a Machine Gun Section.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo

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Ravrick

Hi Guys,

very many thanks for this insight, he was born and lived in Henley on Thames, Oxfordshire. I know very little about him or his service, all I have is a photo of him in a civilian band uniform with his BWM/Victory medal ribbons and a small badge worn by his sister - a pinback Lee Enfield with cap on top and 3 gemstones Red, White & Blue. I will do some digging around the 7th Bn  and 78th MGC as that seems a likely possibility..

 

Thanks again & Cheers,

Rick

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kenf48
On 16/05/2019 at 10:14, Ravrick said:

Hi Guys,

very many thanks for this insight, he was born and lived in Henley on Thames, Oxfordshire. I know very little about him or his service, all I have is a photo of him in a civilian band uniform with his BWM/Victory medal ribbons and a small badge worn by his sister - a pinback Lee Enfield with cap on top and 3 gemstones Red, White & Blue. I will do some digging around the 7th Bn  and 78th MGC as that seems a likely possibility..

 

Thanks again & Cheers,

Rick

 

Assuming he was the Dennis Edward Jones born in 1896 I agree he was probably a Derby Scheme Recruit.  His year of birth places him in Group 2 who were the first to be called from 20 January 1916.  His OBLI number indicates that he was mobilised at Cowley Barracks on the 25 January 1916.  There was an undertaking that men would not be sent on active service overseas until age 19, therefore his exact date of birth is critical.

 

He was not a battalion machine gunner, the reason the men were transferred and numbered to the MGC in alphabetical order is because two officers from the MGC visited home based reserve units to select suitable recruits for the Corps.  The men listed above were all posted to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion of the OBLI, at that time based in Dover, they were most likely recovering from wounds or sickness, or awaiting a posting to an active service unit for some other reason.  

 

His transfer into the MGC was, as stated above on 28th June 1918 from that Battalion and joining/rejoining the BEF in September/October 1918.  Once in the MGC at this time any regimental affiliation was lost, for example two men, previously in the OBLI and in this draft whose records survive went to the 3rd and 63rd Battalions MGC.

 

Similarly in the absence of a service record we do not know which Battalion of the OBLI he served with, although as he was in the Reserve Battalion of the Regiment when posted to the MGC we can assume he remained with them from the date of his mobilisation.  The man next to him, 22299 Gunston did not remain in the OBLI.  He was posted to France on the 24th July 1916 and on arrival at 55 Infantry Base Depot, Rouen was posted to the 15th Royal Warwicks, transferring to them in September 1916 as was 22465.

 

That is why Pte Jones date of birth is crucial, it means we can start looking for drafts shortly after his nineteenth birthday, by no means an exact science though we have to start somewhere.  Men in the 2229* series were posted to the 2nd, 7th and 5th Battalions.  The 5th Battalion was reduced to a cadre in April 1918 and returned to the UK in June, that may be why he was posted to the MGC from the Depot in June.

 

He may have applied for a Pension as a consequence of him being posted to the 3rd Battalion (if the reason for the posting was medical) so you may find something in the pension records on Fold 3 in Ancestry.  It might also be worth looking for him in the casualty lists though I can't see him there.

 

Sorry all a bit speculative and more questions than answers, the only thing we can be sure of is his date of mobilisation and the date of transfer to the MGC where soldiers received a minimum of six weeks training.  Wherever he served with the OBLI his MGC service, for logistical reasons is most likely to have been in France.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

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Ravrick

Hi, many thanks for the very informative reply,

according to my family tree records - D E Jones born 11 July 1894 in Rotherfield Greys, near Henley on Thames, died 1977 in Henley. He may have had a reserved occupation, a medical issue or other reason, otherwise he would have joined earlier at the outbreak of war. I will see what else I can find out..

Cheers, Rick

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kenf48
1 hour ago, Ravrick said:

Hi, many thanks for the very informative reply,

according to my family tree records - D E Jones born 11 July 1894 in Rotherfield Greys, near Henley on Thames, died 1977 in Henley. He may have had a reserved occupation, a medical issue or other reason, otherwise he would have joined earlier at the outbreak of war. I will see what else I can find out..

Cheers, Rick

 

Not so critical then!

 

The 1939 Register has the 11 July 1894 (Group 4)

Birth Records show his birth was registered 3 Quarter 1895 (Group 3)

1901/1911 Census has 1896 (Group 2) 

We also know he was single as he married in 1919.

 

Groups 2 - 5 were the first to be called and shared the 20 January date, so it makes little or no difference to the mobilisation or call up date.  I’m not sure why you think he may have joined earlier, there was however great pressure on single men to attest under the Derby Scheme.  The fact he was called up in his turn indicates he did not appeal, or if he did his appeal was turned down therefore no reserved occupation or medical grounds.

 

Twelve weeks training so posting to an active service unit from May 1916 (though most seemed to be posted in July).

 

Ken

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PRC
48 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

The 1939 Register has the 11 July 1894 (Group 4)

Birth Records show his birth was registered 3 Quarter 1895 (Group 3)

1901/1911 Census has 1896 (Group 2) 

We also know he was single as he married in 1919.

 

 The quarterley register of deaths in England and Wales issued by the General Registrars Office shows for the man who died in the Henley District in Q2 of 1977 a date of birth of the 18th July 1895. Could be a transcription error when it was pulled togather from local records or an error in the information given to the registrar but that does tie in with the birth registration quarter and is probably more reflective of the ages shown on the 1901 & 1911 Census - the year of birth is a guesstimate by genealogy sites based on the age they have transcribed rather than a statement of fact.

 

The 15 year old Dennis Jones was still at School on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. That was well beyond the standard school leaving age at that time, so may have been a scholarship boy or his parents were investing in him for a better future. However that doesn't give an indication of what profession he may have entered and whether that led to the delay in him seeing service. Does the 1919 marriage certificate give any indication of what profession he was returning to?

 

Apologies for any mis-direction - I read the earlier posts and saw men moved to the MGC in June 1918 and read it as June 1916, which tied in with the likely creation date of the 78th Machine Gun Company. Sight test has been arranged :-)

 

Cheers,

Peter

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