Private Frederick Seaman, East Surrey Regiment

[John French]

I am researching Private 20369 Seaman who was born in 1897 and reportedly enlisted in October 1914 in the East Surrey Regiment, probably underage.  Can anyone confirm the enlistment date?

Initially he served in the 10th (Reserve) Battalion in England, but was killed at Guillemont on the Somme with the First Battalion on September 5th.  Is there any way to determine when he transferred to France and whether he was involved in any earlier actions?

[ForeignGong]

Hi John

See https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=armed+forces+%26+conflict&lastname=seaman&soldiernumber=20369&keywordsplace_proximity=&sourcecountry=great+britain

 

Check  Ancestry Enlisted 29 July 1916.

Peter

[charlie962]

It may be of interest that there is a photo of him here in the FMP Newspapers ?

 

A brother Percy was killed 10/7/16.

Edited 10 May , 2019 by charlie962

[Mark1959]

Something does not add up. FMP enlistment record says 1st Battalion. Medal Roll says 10th then 1st. . Enlisted late July and killed early September. War Gratuity does indicate a year or less. Does not feel right to me.

[kenf48]

As a single man born in 1897 he would come in  Group 1 under the Derby Scheme, or Class 1 under the terms of the Military Service Act.

 

 All men who were born in 1897 who had not been called up were told in August 1916 they would be called up at 18 years 8 months and eligible for service abroad from 19 years.  So not an under age enlistment, but conscripted under the Military Service Act the earliest date for the Group/Class was from May 10th 1916 (Proclamation April 10).  So his birthdate is key to his enlistment.

 

I’m not familiar with the East Surrey Recruitment Registers but wonder if the enlistment date of July is a transfer into the Regiment and he did his basic training (12 weeks) elsewhere.

 

The war diary shows a number of drafts at the beginning of August.

 

Ken

 

 

Edited 10 May , 2019 by kenf48

[John French]

Thanks for all your responses, which have confirmed his transfer date to 1st Battalion, but (as usual) raised further questions:

 

1) Foreigngong, the FMP links to the Surrey History Centre show Private 201369 transferring from 10th to 1st Battalion East Surrey Regiment on 27/7/1916, which is in line with our other sources.  Ancestry shows another Frederick Seaman enlisting in July 1916, but he was from Ilkley (rather than Little Chesterford) and joined the West Riding Regiment. Do you have anything showing an enlistment date in the 10th Battalion?

 

2) Mark1959 , please would you send me the link to the medal roll information.  I agree that a July enlistment would leave insufficient time for training to be in killed-in-action by Sept 5, so I think 10th Battalion service in England is more likely. Please could you explain your comment on War Gratuity, as one year service does not match our July 1914 enlistment date.

 

Thanks

[Mark1959]

His War Gratuity is £3 paid to his NoK. On Ancestry. £3 was the minimum for a Private. It meant he did not serve for more than a year but may have served less. Hence it suggests an enlistment date no earlier than Aug-Sep 1915 and maybe later. 

Round about 6 weeks from enlistment to overseas deployment and death seem strange for a man who appears to be a normal infantryman. Have seen men deployed that quick but had a specialist skill.

[RaySearching]

8 hours ago, John French said:

1) Foreigngong, the FMP links to the Surrey History Centre show Private 201369 transferring from 10th to 1st Battalion East Surrey Regiment on 27/7/1916, which is in line with our other sources. 

 

May I assume the above are Typos

Source Surrey History Center

 

Note the G Prefix 

Soldiers effects give his prefix as G10

 

Ray

 

 

[John French]

Ray, the service numbers and dates were typos - sorry for the confusion. Thanks for the info from 1st Battalion Part II Orders, which confirms his unfortunately short 1st Battalion history.  Please would you explain the significance of the G prefix on his 10th Battalion service number.

 

Mark1959, thanks for explanation on gratuity.  I'm now thinking he may have been conscripted under Military Service Act and his transfer to France was on his 19th birthday.

 

Kenf48, please would you clarify your statement "the earliest date for the Group/Class was from May 10th 1916 (Proclamation April 10)"  I am still trying to confirm Private Seaman's birth-date, but I suspect it could be June/July 1897,

 

Thanks 

John

 

 

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, John French said:

Private Seaman's birth-date, but I suspect it could be June/July 1897,

If it was registered in Q1 1897 then not June/July !

 

This is a tree on Ancestry

Edited 12 May , 2019 by charlie962

[kenf48]

Assuming he was conscripted, born 1897 he was in Class 1(if he enlisted under the Derby Scheme Group 1). This was a ‘special’ class for 18 year old recruits.  Under the Military Service Act there was a Proclamation warning men in each  Class the date from which they would be called.  So the earliest date was May 10th, and the latest August as previously posted.  So twelve  weeks training as an infantryman and, at this stage of the war active service overseas on attaining age nineteen.  Therefore if born first quarter of 1897 would have been in the earliest to be called in his class, and nineteen when posted in July.  As a consequence of the  National Registration Act 1915 the authorities would know his exact birthdate.

 

Ken

Edited 12 May , 2019 by kenf48
Typo

[RaySearching]

The G prefix was issued for men joining up for wartime service only

although this was not always shown on some documents

 

See  Paul Nixons Army service number blogspot Here

 

The SWB records have Pte 20282  W F Whitbread who’s service followed a similar path  to Seamans

 

Whitbread is shown to have enlisted 24/03/1916 on the silver war badge records

10th Bn East Surrey

1st Bn East Surrey

 

if the service numbers were issued in sequence then a July 1916 date of enlistment is a possibility

 

Ray

[John French]

Thanks for all your responses. Based on RaySearching's last posting, I have shown Private Seaman's enlistment as end-March 1916, based on Private Whitbread's confirmed enlistment date and the proximity of their service numbers. 

 

Chalk up another success for the Great War Forum's sleuths and a wealth of supplementary knowledge for me.