Naval officer's uniform

[daggers]

Not many naval queries appear on this section, but can anyone help with the period and rank of this uniform please.  The probable subject was later in the RND, Hood Battalion.

[FROGSMILE]

I’m fairly sure that it’s a junior diplomats coatee from ‘court uniform’, as is worn for high status embassy functions.  There were/are still a variety of ranks/grades, with ascending amounts of gold lace.  They have changed slightly with each reign.  Full historical detail can be seen via this link:

https://archive.org/details/dressinsigniawor00greauoft/page/n37

 

 

 

Edited 7 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Ron Clifton]

No epaulettes, and no cuff insignia. I don't believe that it is a Royal Naval uniform. I tend to agree with Frogsmile that it is either a diplomatic or Civil Service uniform.

 

Ron

[horatio2]

Agree. Neither the uniform nor the sword in naval. Do we have a name?

[daggers]

Thank you.  The family name of the owner of the photo is Daglish, but no known diplomatic links.  There is another which I’ll post later on this thread, which may relate.

D

[Ron Clifton]

https://archive.org/details/dressinsigniawor00greauoft/page/n93

 

It looks like the undress uniform (full dress had white breeches) of a third or fourth class civil servant, not necessarily diplomatic service. As Frogsmile has pointed out, the details of embroidery varied over time, and in particular your picture shows no embroidery at the side of the waist.

 

Ron

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, I think that Ron is correct.  Strictly speaking it is known as Civil Court Dress and different varieties were worn by civil servants and even privy councillors.  The link I posted explains all the various grades.

[daggers]

Here is another from the family collection for your scrutiny and comment please.

D

[FROGSMILE]

Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve Sub-Lieutenant or Warrant Officer in Full Dress I think.

 

 

 

Edited 7 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[ARABIS]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve Sub-Lieutenant or Warrant Officer in Full Dress I think.

 

 

Yes, he is a Sub-Lieutenant RNVR, but your illustration shows the cuff lace for a Sub-Lieutenant Royal Naval Reserve.

Will post a picture of the correct insignia later if no-one else does first.

 

ARABIS. 

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, ARABIS said:

 

Yes, he is a Sub-Lieutenant RNVR, but your illustration shows the cuff lace for a Sub-Lieutenant Royal Naval Reserve.

Will post a picture of the correct insignia later if no-one else does first.

 

ARABIS. 

 

Thanks ARABIS, I thought that the Royal Naval Reserve had a squared off ‘loop’ and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve a star shaped loop? 

 

Afternote:  I see now that I have inadvertently swopped rank images around, I will correct it.

Edited 7 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[ARABIS]

Here is a page from a WW1 publication, the cuff loop in the OPs photo is the pre-early 1916 pattern [number 86].

 

ARABIS

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you.  Yes, I’ve just found this that makes the two patterns clear.

 

The earlier pattern you show confused me at first as it looked like a star too. 

 

The lace itself seems unusually narrow and that together with the absence of any fringe whatsoever on his epaulettes made me wonder if he might be a warrant officer?

 

Edited 7 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[daggers]

Fascinating to see the experts at work. 

GGD was a commissioned officer,rising to Acting Lieut-Commander in wartime and again in the early 1920s, but was a substantive Lieutenant during the War period.

Thank you.  More research needed in the family about the court dress.

D

[horatio2]

2 minutes ago, daggers said:

rising to Acting Lieut-Commander in wartime

He was promoted to Temporary Lieutenant Commander RNVR in the RND (not Acting) on 1 September 1914 and held that rank until the termination of his RND commission in September 1915, when he reverted to Lieutenant RNVR with seniority 12 Feb 1912. 

[daggers]

Sloppy typing on my part!

D

[ARABIS]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you.  Yes, I’ve just found this that makes the two patterns clear.

 

The earlier pattern you show confused me at first as it looked like a star too. 

 

The lace itself seems unusually narrow and that together with the absence of any fringe whatsoever on his epaulettes made me wonder if he might be a warrant officer?

 

 

FROGSMILE,

Sub-Lieutenants also wore epaulettes without fringes, only Lieutenants and above wore them. 

ARABIS.

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, ARABIS said:

 

FROGSMILE,

Sub-Lieutenants also wore epaulettes without fringes, only Lieutenants and above wore them. 

ARABIS.

 

 

Thank you, I had been musing on that possibility while waiting for you to reply.  Was the thinner lace used for the ring and loop the only differentiation then?

[ARABIS]

Looking through a couple of Navy Lists there are no RNVR Warrant Officers up to the end of 1918 & the page on post #12 does not include any Warrant Officers. The Navy List for December 1924 only lists one RNVR Boatswain & one RNVR Signal Boatswain. The single thin lace for RN Warrant Officers was introduced sometime after WW1 so I assume that applied to the reserves as well. By the start of WW2 the only difference between the uniform of Warrant Officers & Sub-Lieutenants was the width of the single cuff lace. The cuff lace on the photo in post #6  doesn't look that narrow to me.

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, ARABIS said:

Looking through a couple of Navy Lists there are no RNVR Warrant Officers up to the end of 1918 & the page on post #12 does not include any Warrant Officers. The Navy List for December 1924 only lists one RNVR Boatswain & one RNVR Signal Boatswain. The single thin lace for RN Warrant Officers was introduced sometime after WW1 so I assume that applied to the reserves as well. By the start of WW2 the only difference between the uniform of Warrant Officers & Sub-Lieutenants was the width of the single cuff lace. The cuff lace on the photo in post #6  doesn't look that narrow to me.

 

Thank you, that is clear and very interesting.

[daggers]

Again, thanks for these contributions.  The identity of the wearer of the court dress will have to wait for some comparisons of photos.

D

[rolt968]

The original RNVR officers' lace was narrower (or possibly some uniform makers made it that way).

There is a splendid photo of the Hon. Rupert Guinness and officers of the London Division in 1905 on page 19 of Howarth's The Royal Navy's Reserve in Peace and War, in which the officers are clearly wearing narrower lace and the "pointed top" executive loop. I can't see exactly when the slightly broader lace was adopted. I'm sure someone on the forum will know.

RM

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, rolt968 said:

The original RNVR officers' lace was narrower (or possibly some uniform makers made it that way).

There is a splendid photo of the Hon. Rupert Guinness and officers of the London Division in 1905 on page 19 of Howarth's The Royal Navy's Reserve in Peace and War, in which the officers are clearly wearing narrower lace and the "pointed top" executive loop. I can't see exactly when the slightly broader lace was adopted. I'm sure someone on the forum will know.

RM

 

Thanks RM, that certainly fits with my visual impression of the OPs image, and it’s interesting to know that the patterns (size, shape, etc.) changed a little.

Edited 8 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[rolt968]

I have been looking through Howarth's book again. Earlier in the book there is another photo of Rupert Guinness as a commander RNVR. Not only are the lace stripes narrower and the executive loop more star shaped, but the waves are flatter. I wonder how much in the early days was down to the individual uniform maker?

RM

[FROGSMILE]

59 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

I have been looking through Howarth's book again. Earlier in the book there is another photo of Rupert Guinness as a commander RNVR. Not only are the lace stripes narrower and the executive loop more star shaped, but the waves are flatter. I wonder how much in the early days was down to the individual uniform maker?

RM

 

Yes that’s a point, l guess it depended on the tailor’s experience and also whether he had the requisite pattern book.