WWI British Smock (Blouse Burberry Suit Northern Russia Intervention)

[Ypres1915]

I was at a show recently and saw this smock. When I first saw it, I assumed it was the WWII mountain troops smock. After I got closer, I realized it was different. There is no hood, the collar is standing, etc... After I looked inside, I noticed the WD mark and it appears to be WWI issue since the number is above the WD and the letter is below. I can only imagine it was a camo item ? Does a member have any insight into this piece?

 

All the best,

 

Ypres1915

Edited 1 May , 2019 by Ypres1915

[FROGSMILE]

The saddle shoulders, presumably of doubled material (?) suggests that the garment pictured might be specially for use with a shouldered load of some kind.

Edited 27 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Ypres1915]

You are correct, the material is doubled. Your idea is a possibility. The material is thin and would not provide much padding? Is waterproofing a possibility? The presence of shoulder boards would also lead me to believe they secured some equipment strap ? P08 ? P14?

 

Thanks for your reply

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, Ypres1915 said:

You are correct, the material is doubled. Your idea is a possibility. The material is thin and would not provide much padding? Is waterproofing a possibility? The presence of shoulder boards would also lead me to believe they secured some equipment strap ? P08 ? P14?

 

Thanks for your reply

 

I’m sorry that I cannot offer more suggestions, I have never seen anything like it before.

 I strongly recommend that you get in contact with the clothing collection archivist at the Imperial War Museum, which is the Nation’s principal repository for artefacts of the Great War, they might be able to help.

Edited 28 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Ypres1915]

Frogsmile,

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I may do that. It's a real mystery. No pockets either …. ? The collar is a little like the sniper crawling suit but the material is not waterproofed like that garment. The cloth is a fine weave and would stop wind. It has a lamp cord in the bottom to cinch the garment around your waist. It is longer than a service dress jacket. The first photo shows it displayed over a WWI tunic. 

 

Thanks again,

 

Ypres1915

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Ypres1915 said:

Frogsmile,

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I may do that. It's a real mystery. No pockets either …. ? The collar is a little like the sniper crawling suit but the material is not waterproofed like that garment. The cloth is a fine weave and would stop wind. It has a lamp cord in the bottom to cinch the garment around your waist. It is longer than a service dress jacket. The first photo shows it displayed over a WWI tunic. 

 

Thanks again,

 

Ypres1915

 

It’s certainly very intriguing and perhaps born of the innovation induced by the war.  The similarities with the sniper crawling suit that you refer to certainly seem to offer the best clue so far.  Please do report back if you learn more.

Edited 28 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Ypres1915]

I certainly will. I'm still holding out hope somebody on the forum my have a period photo or has seen this item before.

 

Thanks again,

 

ypres1915

Edited 28 April , 2019 by Ypres1915

[Grovetown]

14 hours ago, Ypres1915 said:

Is waterproofing a possibility?

 

Waterproof items were - after 1916 at least - were accepted at Olympia and bore an O letter code.

 

Such an item is not listed among the waterproof items in Joe Sweeney's article for Militaria magazine.

 

12 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I strongly recommend that you get in contact with the clothing collection archivist at the Imperial War Museum, which is the Nation’s principal repository for artefacts of the Great War, they might be able to help.

 

You'd do just as well asking the pupils in your local primary school given the level of subject matter expertise that resides at the IWM these days. It's more about interpretation and museum studies than knowing your onions. And that from former stalwart experts once there, now no longer, not being able to stand it any more. The NAM aren't much better, and that's from personal experience.

 

If people here don't know, the IWM  won't either IMHO.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

Edited 28 April , 2019 by Grovetown

[johnboy]

What are the buttons made of?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Grovetown said:

 

Waterproof items were - after 1916 at least - were accepted at Olympia and bore an O letter code.

 

Such an item is not listed among the waterproof items in Joe Sweeney's article for Militaria magazine.

 

 

You'd do just as well asking the pupils in your local primary school given the level of subject matter expertise that resides at the IWM these days. It's more about interpretation and museum studies than knowing your onions. And that from former stalwart experts once there, now no longer, not being able to stand it any more. The NAM aren't much better, and that's from personal experience.

 

If people here don't know, the IWM  won't either IMHO.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

What you say does not surprise me that much, as I had gained a similar opinion.  That said, as several days passage has not elicited a reply it seems worth a punt.  I assume that there probably still is a collections archivist, it remains to be seen if they are knowledgeable.

[Ypres1915]

Thanks for the information about Olympia  ….. What items did Pimlico specialize in? If I recall it was service dress and hats ? Were there any other items that seemed to pass through that depot? Being from Canada, my connections with the IWM are non existent. I searched their site and discovered the following:

 

While we cannot help directly with enquiries about objects or media not held by the museum, you may be able to find out more about your item by comparing it to similar items through our Collections Online. Due to the sheer volume of such requests we receive, our curators’ focus has to be the development and documentation of items already in our collection, as well as the creation of exhibitions and other elements of our public programme.

[Ypres1915]

3 hours ago, johnboy said:

What are the buttons made of?

 

Not sure really … vegetable ivory perhaps. I'll look closer and let you know.

 

Ypres1915

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Ypres1915 said:

Thanks for the information about Olympia  ….. What items did Pimlico specialize in? If I recall it was service dress and hats ? Were there any other items that seemed to pass through that depot? Being from Canada, my connections with the IWM are non existent. I searched their site and discovered the following:

 

While we cannot help directly with enquiries about objects or media not held by the museum, you may be able to find out more about your item by comparing it to similar items through our Collections Online. Due to the sheer volume of such requests we receive, our curators’ focus has to be the development and documentation of items already in our collection, as well as the creation of exhibitions and other elements of our public programme.

 

Well it was worth a try, but I’m not surprised by the online statement that you have posted.  Sadly few of the British National museums have other than generalist staff.  Unfortunately, although they are focusing on existing collections they quite frequently caption them incorrectly.  A sad state of affairs.

Edited 28 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Ypres1915]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Sadly few of the British National museums have other than generalist staff.

 

I don't think British Museums have a monopoly on generalist staff … In their defence, not  many patrons have inquiries like this. Perhaps a member of this form has a more direct relationship with a staff member at the IWM who may be able to help? I'll check back regularly to see if there is an update.

 

Ypres1915

[gronksmil]

could it be for polar exploration of some sort?

[Grovetown]

8 hours ago, Ypres1915 said:

While we cannot help directly with enquiries about objects or media not held by the museum, you may be able to find out more about your item by comparing it to similar items through our Collections Online. Due to the sheer volume of such requests we receive, our curators’ focus has to be the development and documentation of items already in our collection, as well as the creation of exhibitions and other elements of our public programme.

 

Wasn't always the case.

 

As a younger collector, I wrote to them about certain objects and received a letter asking me to telephone to make an appointment.

 

On arrival, I was shown to a back room and the well-known and late Diana Condell, then Curator of Exhibits and Firearms, spent a good few hours with me going through stuff of interest. And as the conversation turned, she'd say "We've got one of those", disappear and re-appear a few minutes later with the item.

 

It was great, and unimaginable nowadays.

 

In fact, saw a pretty poor captioning error on its website this morning.

 

Slightly different experience with the NAM. Again, wrote to them and, again, was invited in to meet senior staff as they didn't have the item in question and would like to see it. All very positive thus far.

 

However, as a result of that meeting, and later correspondence, it became apparent - in terms of Great War militaria at least - they did not know what they were talking about.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

[Keith_history_buff]

I would suggest joining the following specialist forum on Facebook, and posting it there, to see what its members know. It looks similar to WW2 garments that I have seen photos of.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/146583445964612/

 

Thanks, 
Keith

[Ypres1915]

14 hours ago, gronksmil said:

could it be for polar exploration of some sort?

That's an interesting idea. It looks a little like the ones I've seen in photos of polar explorers. It's not out of the possibility the military would adopt this type of smock. Something to investigate further. 

 

Thanks,

 

Ypres1915

11 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I would suggest joining the following specialist forum on Facebook,

Keith,

 

Thanks for the idea. I may.

 

Ypres1915

[derekb]

On 28/04/2019 at 21:56, FROGSMILE said:

 

What you say does not surprise me that much, as I had gained a similar opinion.  That said, as several days passage has not elicited a reply it seems worth a punt.  I assume that there probably still is a collections archivist, it remains to be seen if they are knowledgeable.

 

I find it the norm not to even get an acknowledgement from numerous people/institutions when making an enquiry, when often the subject would, you think be of interest to them.

Edited 30 April , 2019 by derekb
Mis spelling

[Open Bolt]

On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 06:34, gronksmil said:

could it be for polar exploration of some sort?

An idle (and unlikely) thought: Shackleton equipped the army for North Russia but I cannot find imagery to help...

Edited 30 April , 2019 by Open Bolt

[Keith_history_buff]

There's an image in Damien Lewis's book on Northern Russia of the Shackleton clothing, from his private collection. This shows heavy overcoats rather than smocks, though.

[Ypres1915]

I think this is getting somewhere. The Northern Russia connection is making a little sense. I was only thinking about this in the context of the Western Front. I found a picture of Shackleton's crew from the Transantarctic Expedition standing in front of the Endurance online. I assumed the hoods to these smocks were sewn on. Perhaps the hoods were separate like on the snipers crawling suit ?

Edited 30 April , 2019 by Ypres1915

[Ypres1915]

Since this was found in Canada, perhaps it returned with members of the 259th or 260th Battalions? It originally came directly from the woodwork ….??? I'll start looking at more photos from the CSEF to see if I can find an example..

 

Ypres1915

[Ypres1915]

I decided to take the IWM's advice of trying to compare my object with their collection. Unfortunately there is no image available but I found the following descriptions:

 

Hood, 'Burberry Suit' (North Russia Intervention): British Army :  Physical description

Hood of light khaki gabardine, featuring a circular face opening with an integral all-round visor that can be fastened at the bottom via a single button.

Inscription

GEO. H.V. EAVEY & Co. LTD. 1918. W↑D

 

Blouse, 'Burberry Suit' (North Russia Intervention): British Army : PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION

 

Long-sleeved, smock-style pullover blouse of light khaki gabardine fabric, featuring a short stand collar which can be tightened or loosened via a white cotton tape fed through the length of the collar and tied at the front, as well as epaulettes and button-tab cuffs.

Inscription

44 W↑D P

Trousers, 'Burberry Suit' (North Russia Intervention): British army: physical description:

Full-length straight-legged trousers of light khaki gabardine fabric, featuring a button fly, drawstring (cotton tape) waistband and reinforcement patches to the knees and crotch. There is some white staining to the lower left leg.

Inscription

8 W↑D P

 

I think the description of the blouse fits perfectly. Would be nice if the IWM had a photo, but the description sounds spot on. Thanks to all who helped solve this mystery.

 

Ypres1915

Edited 1 May , 2019 by Ypres1915

[Jerry B]

I am pleased to see that an answer was uncovered, this must be a rare bit of kit.