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larfinboy

Welch, Welsh or not.. (badge)

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larfinboy

Hi, bought this off the Bay as a WWI Welch badge.. Cant find spot anything quiet like it on the Ooogle. So any ideas on its provinence please. Real collar ones seem silver, other "brass" ones are of a different design. No makers mark on the back. 

 

Welch1 600x649.jpg

Edited by larfinboy
resized picture

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Welsh Regiment and Royal Welsh Fusiliers from 1881 to 1920, when the name reverted to the archaic spelling 'Welch'.

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Jerry B

Monmouthshire regiment

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FROGSMILE

That particular badge was used as  the cap badge of the Monmouthshire Regiment other ranks.  A similar badge (at first glance) was also a collar badge for the Welsh Regiment for a period, but later replaced by a different pattern entirely.

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larfinboy

Thank you so much for your input/ Very helpful

 

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Jerry B

I don't think the Welsh ever used the pattern shown as a Collar, I have many variations for them and the Mons etc, but not one of that type.  I shall check my references...

a Welsh dragon collars montage vs.jpg

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larfinboy

Does the fact that it has the loops rather than the slider make a difference??

Welch2.jpg

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larfinboy

The dreaded Wikipedia page for the Monmouthshire regiment has the same badge but with a slider

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FROGSMILE

Some of the Welsh Regiment collar badges that I was referring to.  The officers’ pattern was the most close to the Monmouthshire’s badge, the other ranks pattern was more stunted.  There were several tail variations and these can be seen in the large group image.

 

 

B256555A-8E68-438E-B195-A80F86AE5C10.jpeg

96BF0B85-FFAE-4AB1-9913-9C9F3B66B69E.jpeg

1A978398-811A-476A-9B14-80DD1982255C.jpeg

A3CC2951-0AC1-401D-B596-19E656833F0E.jpeg

27E824C2-863D-4E4D-B8AE-36CC72ECAFCD.jpeg

0A288F04-3849-4E93-99C2-C76D7E381B7A.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE

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larfinboy

so many variations  - thanks for sharing

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Jerry B
1 hour ago, larfinboy said:

Does the fact that it has the loops rather than the slider make a difference??

Welch2.jpg

 

 

Depending on size, it does look more likely to be a collar badge

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FROGSMILE
59 minutes ago, larfinboy said:

so many variations  - thanks for sharing

 

Yes, as well as tails there was variation with wings, that were either upright or set back in more of a curve.  These all reflected differences in sealed patterns and manufacturers.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Scalyback
2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Yes, as well as tails there was variation with wings, that were either upright or set back in more of a curve.  These all reflected differences in sealed patterns and manufacturers.

 

The variations based on the battalion? Or is one going around the twist! 

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FROGSMILE
3 minutes ago, Scalyback said:

 

The variations based on the battalion? Or is one going around the twist! 

 

The variations I was referring to related to the sealed pattern collar badges of the Welsh Regiment whilst it used the dragon badge for that purpose.  Later on a variant of the Prince of Wales’s feathers and a motto scroll was adopted.

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Scalyback
4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The variations I was referring to related to the sealed pattern collar badges of the Welsh Regiment whilst it used the dragon badge for that purpose.  Later on a variant of the Prince of Wales’s feathers and a motto scroll was adopted.

 

Crossed wires. The Monmouth Dragon(as such) different between the battalions. 

I have plenty of Welsh insignia being the family regiment. Delving into the branch's of my family a few Monmouth guys and a Brecknock(Cefn did not serve in the war). 

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FROGSMILE

My understanding of many years now is that the other ranks of the Monmouthshire Regiment battalions all wore the same configuration of dragon, but with just the 1st Battalion’s in white metal.  Only the officers wore variants.  The Brecknockshire Battalion of the SWB wore the exact same style of dragon in gilding metal, but with a title scroll beneath.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Scalyback
6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

My understanding of many years now is that the other ranks of the Monmouthshire Regiment battalions all wore the same configuration of dragon, but with just the 1st Battalion’s in white metal.  Only the officers wore variants.  The Brecknockshire Battalion of the SWB wore the exact same style of dragon in gilding metal, but with a title scroll beneath.

 

Most informative. I'm sure at some point a platoon variation will appear.........

The Brecknock connection surprised me, with my part of the family drilling down the road with the Welsh Regiment. Did they ever meet informally in uniform. The further you dig, the more questions arise.

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larfinboy

Thanks gents

 

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FROGSMILE
1 hour ago, Scalyback said:

 

Most informative. I'm sure at some point a platoon variation will appear.........

The Brecknock connection surprised me, with my part of the family drilling down the road with the Welsh Regiment. Did they ever meet informally in uniform. The further you dig, the more questions arise.

 

The SWB and RWF recruiting areas allocated in 1881 (never observed to the letter) had borders with England, whereas the  Welsh Regiment did not.  This meant that border Counties like Brecknockshire and Monmouthshire overlapped on all sides which affected recruitment.  Both Counties former VF regiments were allocated to the SWB as VBs in the decades after the 1881 Reforms.  Brecknockshire stayed loyal to this arrangement, but Monmouthshire, always an especially proud County, had never got over losing their nominal regular regiment, the 43rd Foot to Oxfordshire, and when the TF was formed in 1908, they were granted independent status with a discrete TF only regiment of 3-battalions.  Monmouthshire was one of just a few Counties afforded such special status.

 

The Heraldic Dragon of Wales, which is what the badge represents, was awarded to the SWB when it was granted its Welsh association via the Royal South Wales Borderers Militia, in 1881.  The VBs subsequently became associated with the badge and retained it subsequently.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Scalyback
24 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The SWB and RWF recruiting areas allocated in 1881 (never observed to the letter) had borders with England, whereas the  Welsh Regiment did not.  This meant that border Counties like Brecknockshire and Monmouthshire overlapped on all sides which affected recruitment.  Both Counties former VF regiments were allocated to the SWB as VBs in the decades after the 1881 Reforms.  Brecknockshire stayed loyal to this arrangement, but Monmouthshire, always an especially proud County, had never got over losing their nominal regular regiment, the 43rd Foot to Oxfordshire, and when the TF was formed in 1908, they were granted independent status with a discrete TF only regiment of 3-battalions.  Monmouthshire was one of just a few Counties afforded such special status.

 

Aware of the borders. Breckonshire had a detachment at Cefn Coed. Then part of Breckonshire but now fully part of Merthyr Tydfil. The Cefn drill hall a fve minute cycle or twenty minute walk to the Welsh TF drill hall in Merthyr. Family members close but not close.This is just my parental side.

My maternal side creeps into Monmouth regiment territory but can not find any relative badged SWB(proper) on either side.

One cheeky great grandfather went RWF........I can forgive him that :P

I ironically went to a Corps and drilled at Brecon Barracks. A strange twist. 

 

 

Monmouth and Breckonshire battalions "independent" of any nominal regular regiment but part of "The Corps of The South Wales Borderers". 

Throw in some rifle heritage from the VB Times and it's all clear as mud. Further add in the South Wales Brigade that was a TF formation mainly Welsh regiment but including Brecknockshire regiment, you do wonder what empire building went on. 

 

Cambridgeshire being the other independent regiment who was the third? 

 

Not going near Montgomeryshire, that just gets even more confusing with SWB/RWF and other matters. 

 

Just some musing.

 

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FROGSMILE
9 minutes ago, Scalyback said:

 

Aware of the borders. Breckonshire had a detachment at Cefn Coed. Then part of Breckonshire but now fully part of Merthyr Tydfil. The Cefn drill hall a fve minute cycle or twenty minute walk to the Welsh TF drill hall in Merthyr. Family members close but not close.This is just my parental side.

My maternal side creeps into Monmouth regiment territory but can not find any relative badged SWB(proper) on either side.

One cheeky great grandfather went RWF........I can forgive him that :P

I ironically went to a Corps and drilled at Brecon Barracks. A strange twist. 

 

 

Monmouth and Breckonshire battalions "independent" of any nominal regular regiment but part of "The Corps of The South Wales Borderers". 

Throw in some rifle heritage from the VB Times and it's all clear as mud. Further add in the South Wales Brigade that was a TF formation mainly Welsh regiment but including Brecknockshire regiment, you do wonder what empire building went on. 

 

Cambridgeshire being the other independent regiment who was the third? 

 

Not going near Montgomeryshire, that just gets even more confusing with SWB/RWF and other matters. 

 

Just some musing.

 

 

Herefordshire and Hertfordshire also had TF Regiments.

The RWF bordered with the SWB in one area, and exchanged a former VF battalion, possibly Montgomeryshire, but I would need to check.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Scalyback
Just now, FROGSMILE said:

 

Herefordshire and Hertfordshire also had TF Regiments.

 

That is not confusing on a list! 

Hereford I'm aware of the regular regiment being removed from the line. What happened around Herts for them to obtain TF only status?

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FROGSMILE
1 minute ago, Scalyback said:

 

That is not confusing on a list! 

Hereford I'm aware of the regular regiment being removed from the line. What happened around Herts for them to obtain TF only status?

 

Also Huntingdonshire.  I can’t recall what the rationale was for every one of the Counties concerned.

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Scalyback
6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Also Huntingdonshire.  I can’t recall what the rationale was for every one of the Counties concerned.

 

No problems, something to read up on. No doubt Volunteer history has a hand in it. The sometimes strange backgrounds in non regular forces make for more interesting reading.

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FROGSMILE
8 hours ago, Scalyback said:

 

No problems, something to read up on. No doubt Volunteer history has a hand in it. The sometimes strange backgrounds in non regular forces make for more interesting reading.

 

Yes, some unusual exceptions came out of the formation of the Territorial Force such as the retention of some Militia and the creation of units of Horse in Ireland that were outside the yeomanry.  The rationale for all these oddities will be recorded somewhere.

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