Star and victory medals I would like to reunite with family

[Guest]

In my recently deceased grandmas things, I’ve found the medals belonging to Pte John Entwistle 240084 Royal Lancaster 8th Battalion born 5/8/1890 and was killed in action in 26/9/1917 and is buried in Flanders. He was from Poulton 

I don’t believe him to have been a member of my own family,  although I have another member of my family into genealogy  checking the family tree. 

Its more likely that they became part of a collection as her partner was a war collector. 

It seems he also had a brother who died in service. His parents were John Thomas (a bricklayer) and his mother Margaret. If they had siblings then there may well be some of their grandchildren alive who may like to have these. I don’t feel right selling them. 

Photos below. I haven’t photo’d the victory medal but I do have it. Sadly both missing ribbons but I’m assuming they’ve perished over time. 

Any help appreciated. 

[DavidOwen]

Sammy

 

Welcome to the forum.

If you haven't already you might want to post on the British Medal Forum too (you can do a search on there to see if anyone has posted as looking for these particular medals). https://britishmedalforum.com/index.php

One word of caution though is to thoroughly vet any possible claims made.

 

Good luck and well done on wanting to do this.

 

Regards

 

David.

[PRC]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

In terms of his military career if his service records haven’t survived you might want to check out :-

•  His Medal Index Card on Ancestry, which shows he first landed in France on the 14th February 1915 and was originally service number 1070. Although the MiC are low on information – they don’t give battalions – they show he was entitled to the 1915 Star as well as the British War Medal and Victory. Other things can also be inferred. At the start of 1917 soldiers in Territorial Force units were renumbered with six digit service numbers starting with a 2. The first territorial battalion started from 200*** and so it can quite possible to work out which battalion he was serving with. Interestingly the 1st/5th went out to France in February 1915, landing on the 15th. See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-own-royal-lancaster-regiment/
• The Service Medal Roll for his Victory Medal and British War Medal available on Ancestry. The level of detail on these vary widely but the majority of infantry regiments I’ve had experience off show Battalions served with and a few even have periods of service as well.
• The Army Register for Soldiers Effects entry for him on Ancestry. This will show who the balance of his pay and his War Gratuity were paid to. Usually it’s a mother or father, (or wife), but sometimes it was divided up amongst siblings as well, giving you a date when they were alive and particularly for the sisters, sometimes a married name. They can also sometimes reference if a pension was awarded to dependants.

The MiC is available on FMP as a transcript only and the other two documents aren’t available there. The MiC can also be previewed in a watermarked version at the National Archive site. He would die serving with the 8th Battalion.He has no known grave and is remembered on the Tyne Cot Memorial. It doesn’t look like the International Red Cross Committee received a missing persons enquiry from the family.

 

As to tracking down descendants, that’s more family history than great war history but I’m always up for a challenge. Here’s some starter information for the member of your family who is into genealogy.

 

The most likely candidate on the 1911 Census of England & Wales is a 19 year old “Gardener for a Publican”, who was recorded as a Boarder at 4 Burlingham Avenue, Poulton Le Fylde. His birth place is given as “Carleton”, Lancashire.

 

Going back to the 1901 census he was recorded as aged 10 and born Poulton, living at 16 Clough Street, Bolton, This was the household of his parents John, (aged 40, born Poulton, Lancashire) and Margaret, (aged 38, born Ingleton, Durham).

 

Skipping forward to the 1911 census again his parents were living at 6 Burlington Avenue, Poulton Le Fylde. The most important piece of information for your purposes is that the couple have been married 26 years and have had 12 children of which only six were then still alive. As John was now aged 50 and Margaret was 48, while not impossible it is unlikely they had any more children.

The additional information on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website is that your soldier was the “Son of John Thomas and Margaret Entwistle, of 6, Burlington Avenue, Poulton-le-Fylde, Lancs.”

 

The most likely marriage of his parents occurred in the Bolton District in Q2 of 1884 when a John Thomas Entwistle married a Margaret Simmons.

 

So potential children are probably

1: May Entwistle, mothers’ maiden Simmons, birth registered Fylde, Lancs Q2 1885; May Entwistle, aged 5 born Carleton 1891 Census; May (or Mary) Entwistle, aged 15, born Poulton 1901 Census;

2: Harry Entwistle, mothers’ maiden Simmons, birth registered Fylde, Lancs Q3 1887; Harry Entwistle, aged 3 born Poulton 1891 Census; Harry Entwistle, aged 13, born Poulton 1901 Census;

3: Nancy Williamson Entwistle, mothers’ maiden Simmons, birth registered Fylde, Lancs Q2 1889; Nancy W Entwistle, aged 1 born Blackpool 1891 Census. The death of a Nancy Williamson Entwistle, aged 6, was recorded in the Blackburn District, Q4 1889******************************

4:  John Entwistle, mothers’ maiden Simmons, birth registered Fylde, Lancs Q1 1891 (Note that doesn’t tie up with an August birth unless they paid a fine for late registration); John Entwistle, aged 4 months born Carleton 1891 Census. (Note that doesn’t tie up with an August birth either); John Entwistle, aged 10, born Poulton, 1901 Census; See above for the 1911 Census details.

5: Alma “Simmone” Entwistle, mothers’ maiden Simmons, birth registered Fylde, Lancs Q2 1893; The dealth of an Alma Simmons Entwistle, aged 2, was recorded in the Blackburn District in Q4, 1893 1895.**********************************************************************

6: Albert Entwistle, mothers’ maiden Simmons, birth registered Blackburn, Lancs Q3 1895; Albert Entwistle, aged 4, born Blackburn, 1901 Census; Albert Herbert Entwistle, aged 15, born Blackburn 1911 Census

7: Margaret Louisa Entwistle, mothers’ maiden Simmons, birth registered Bolton, Lancs Q1 1897; Margaret Entwistle, aged 3, born Bolton 1901 Census; Louisa Entwistle, aged 14, born Bolton 1911 Census

8: Stanley Entwistle, mothers’ maiden Simmons, birth registered Bolton, Lancs Q4 1899; The death of a Stanly Entwistle aged under 1 was recorded in the Bolton District in both Q4 1899 and Q1 1900.**********************

9: Thomas William Entwistle, mothers’ maiden Simmons, birth registered Bolton, Lancs Q1 1901; The death of a Thomas William Entwistle, aged 1, was recorded in the Bolton District in Q4 of 1902.*************************************

10: Elsie Entwistle, mothers’ maiden Simmons, birth registered Bolton, Lancs Q1 1903; The death of an Elsie Entwistle, aged 3, was recorded in the Fylde District in Q1 of 1907.****************

11: Florence Jane S Entwistle, mothers’ maiden not available, birth registered Fylde, Lancs Q3 1906; Florrie Entwistle, aged 4, born Poulton 1911 Census

12: Unknown.

 

There is a lot of checking to be done to confirm the right births and dates have been identified, but if they have then of the 12 children the couple stated they had in 1911, the 6 who were then still alive were May, Harry, John, Albert, Margaret Louisa, and Florence. The six who were dead were Nancy, Alma, Stanley, Thomas, Elsie and an unknown child not picked up on the censuses.

 

Of those the most easy to track down should be Florence Jane S Entwistle, which has to be a fairly unique set of first names.

 

A Florence J S Entwistle married a Herbert Varley in Blackpool in Q2 of 1951. Now it may be a coincidence but there are three children recorded as born in the Haslingden District of Lancashire in the 1950’s with surname Varley, mothers’ maiden name Entwistle. They can eaily be looked up on the likes of FreeBMD but as they could well be alive I won’t put their names up here.

 

The death of a Florence Jane S Varley, born 8th August 1906, was recorded in the Blackpool & Fyle District in Q3 of 1985. There is no obvious Probate for her.

 

As she retained her maiden name and you now have a date of birth, it may be possible to track her down on the 1939 National Register, (available on Ancestry and FMP). Potentially she could be living with other family members who can then also be tracked for descendants.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 23 April , 2019 by PRC
Wrong date typo for death of Nancy

[charlie962]

46 minutes ago, PRC said:

if his service records haven’t survived

there is a partial service record surviving on Findmypast here but it doesn't add any new family info although there is a long letter** from his mother that you might be able to decypher.

 

For Military info it tells us he joined 1/5th KORL Regt 6/5/10 and when he signed up for TF overseas service he was G Company. He was twice wounded in 1915 (18/3 and 9/10) and spent some time back in UK but went out to France again 1917.

 

Charlie

 

**edit- I think it says he was the oldest son in a family of 14 children ?

Edited 23 April , 2019 by charlie962

[alf mcm]

Sammy,

  There is a pension ledger record on Ancestry. Unfortunately you need to be a member of Fold 3 or the Western Front Association to access it. https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=ebM2131&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=westernfrontassociation&gsfn=JOHN&gsln=ENTWISTLE&gsfn_x=1&gsln_x=1&cp=11&gskw=MARGARET&gskw_x=1&new=1&rank=1&uidh=9y4&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=39&fh=1&h=482782&recoff=&ml_rpos=2

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[PRC]

Thinking again about the birth date for John Entwistle quoted in the original post (5th August 1890) and how it’s didn’t sit easy with the quarter in which the birth was registered, ( Q1 1891) and the age quoted on the 1891 Census when it was taken on the 5th April, (4 months), I took a look for a baptism record.

 

According to England Births and Christenings 1538-1975 the baptism of a John Entwistle, born 5th December 1890, took place at Poulton Le Fylde on the 1st February 1891. His parents were John and Margaret Entwistle and the family lived in the parish.

Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NT37-CYQ

 

That d.o.b seems a much better match for the civil birth registration and census information, so you might want to check your source for the August birth.

 

There may also be some information as to age or even d.o.b on (1) his service record at the time of enlistment, (2) his pension ledger card, that might serve an indication as to which d.o.b is likely to be right.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[familyhistoryman]

22 hours ago, PRC said:

Thinking again about the birth date for John Entwistle quoted in the original post (5th August 1890) and how it’s didn’t sit easy with the quarter in which the birth was registered, ( Q1 1891) and the age quoted on the 1891 Census when it was taken on the 5th April, (4 months), I took a look for a baptism record.

 

According to England Births and Christenings 1538-1975 the baptism of a John Entwistle, born 5th December 1890, took place at Poulton Le Fylde on the 1st February 1891. His parents were John and Margaret Entwistle and the family lived in the parish.

Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NT37-CYQ

 

That d.o.b seems a much better match for the civil birth registration and census information, so you might want to check your source for the August birth.

 

There may also be some information as to age or even d.o.b on (1) his service record at the time of enlistment, (2) his pension ledger card, that might serve an indication as to which d.o.b is likely to be right.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Hi 

It could be worth contacting the Entwistle Family History Associations (http://www.entwistlefamily.org.uk/) as they have a vast amount of information on Entwistle 

Regards Tony

[Super Trooper]

Don't know if it has been said already but John's brother Albert Herbert Entwistle was also K.I.A. - https://ww1lives.com/death-of-241570-private-albert-herbert-entwistle/

[Coldstreamer]

Please bear in mind the family probably sold them. So long as they go to someone who appreciates them who ever that might be

[battle of loos]

good morning,

 

Here's his medal card :

 

 

Kind regards

 

Michel

[PRC]

Doesn't look like the OP ever came back to the Forum after the first day - can even be sure how many of the responses posted on that day were read.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Coldstreamer]

I didnt even notice the original post was nearly a year old - still the info is there now for any future custodian

[Super Trooper]

Extract from De Ruvigny's Roll of Honour - Entwistle, John, Private, No. 240084, 5th (Territorial) Battalion, The King’s Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment), 2nd son of John Thomas Entwistle, of Poulton-le-Fyde, Bricklayer, by his wife, Margaret, daughter of Elijah Simmons, Schoolmaster; and brother to Private H. Entwistle; born Poulton View, Carleton-le-Fyde, 5 December 1890; educated Christ Church School, Bolton; was a Labourer; joined the Royal Lancaster Territorials 6 May, 1910; was called up on mobilisation 5 August 1914; served with the Expeditionary Force in France and Flanders from February 1915; was wounded at the Meuse 23 March following, and again at Loos 23 October 1915; was reported wounded and missing after the fighting at St. Quentin 26 September 1917, and is now assumed to have been killed in action on or about that date.