Newfoundland Park casualties

[James Power]

Does anyone happen to know the approximate total casualties for the area covered by Newfoundland Park for the 1 July 1916?  The reason I ask is that for understandable reasons the casualties sustained by the 1st Newfoundland Regiment are well documented and readily highlighted by the Park guides, whereas the casualties for all those regiments of the 86th & 87th Brigades who went in to action prior to and after the Newfoundland Regiment are much less known. I appreciate that the park only covers a limited section of the British front line but any help will be much appreciated. 

 

Also, does anyone know why the Union Jack is not flown together with the proud flags of Newfoundland, Canada and France at the entrance of the Park, bearing in mind the totality of losses, both from the UK and Newfoundland, with the former in greater numbers by reason of the time UK regiments held the line here from the autumn of 1915 up to November 1916.  There may be a quite reasonable explanation rooted in the role Canada thankfully played in acquiring the land and establishing the Park.  It's just that whatever the reason is, it has eluded me for all these years.

 

Many thanks

 

 

[phil andrade]

James,

 

You make a point that hits home : if the Union Jack doesn’t fly there, why not ?

 

Phil

 

[sajackr]

Hi,

Probably because the land was purchased by Canada as a memorial to the New Foundlanders?

For correctness it is a Union flag. It's only a Jack when flown on the front of a warship.

 

R"ds

Sajackr

[Don Regiano]

I understand the point being made, but (and I stand to be corrected in this) I don't recall seeing a South African flag at Thiepval, a Union Flag at Delville Wood or any flags at all at Tyne Cot (when i visited in February).  I can't immediately recollect what is or isn't flying at other memorials. 

 

Maybe some consistency is required - one way or the other.

 

Reg

 

Re Thiepval - maybe it is something to do with the status of South Africa during WW1?

Edited 20 April , 2019 by Don Regiano

[nigelcave]

The reason, I assume, is that it is a Canadian site - and maintained by VAC, originally purchased by Newfoundland before it entered Confederation after WWII. Thus the flags of the Memorial's 'owners', Canada (previously Nfd), and of France, in whose country it is. Same applies, e.g., to Vimy (Canada and France) and Delville Wood (France and South Africa) and at Thiepval (on top of the Memorial), UK and France - because of the Franco-British aspect of the Memorial (although, it should be noted, the S African missing of the Somme are on it, as mentioned above). I think it might also apply at Villers B (i.e. Australia and France). Flags do not fly at other CWGC memorials unless for special occasions - for example, in 1997 the flags of the UK and Belgium were flown for several months at Tyne Cot. I assume that flags are not flown at the Indian Army memorial at NC because it was 'British' India, therefore commemorating far more nations than simply modern India, including men (officers entirely, I presume) from the UK.

[sassenach]

4 hours ago, sajackr said:

Hi,

Probably because the land was purchased by Canada as a memorial to the New Foundlanders?

For correctness it is a Union flag. It's only a Jack when flown on the front of a warship.

 

R"ds

Sajackr

For correctness it's the Newfoundlanders.

[sajackr]

Sassenach,

I really apologise for putting a space between New and foundlanders.

 

No wonder why us non experts of every aspects of the Great war don't post very often!!

 

Sajackr

Edited 20 April , 2019 by sajackr

[sassenach]

Don't worry, it gets even more complicated when you get to the question of how to pronounce Newfoundland. The general consensus is with the emphasis on "New" but there will be some dissenters. And, by the way, I didn't know the bit about the Union Jack on a warship!

[Guest Ricard 51]

Bonjour good people...with regard to the issue of flags we should perhaps be grateful that in these days of political correctness and virtue signalling there is no sign as yet of the rainbow flag a flying at these hallowed sites.... just saying!. Sans infraction signifiat to our LGBTQ amis. Bon week-end à tous.

[phil andrade]

1 hour ago, sassenach said:

Don't worry, it gets even more complicated when you get to the question of how to pronounce Newfoundland. The general consensus is with the emphasis on "New" but there will be some dissenters. And, by the way, I didn't know the bit about the Union Jack on a warship!

 

Let John Donne have his say here :

 

O my America ! My new- found - land ....

 

Phil

[Michael Thomson]

Apologies for digressing from the original question but I can definitely confirm that the South African flag (current version) and the French flag are flown at the Delville Wood memorial. 

 

There is a 1914-1918 era South African flag- which has changed twice since WW1- on display but not flown if my memory serves correctly inside the visitors' centre. No Union Flag. 

 

I would imagine that, like the Newfoundland Memorial Park, the particular location is a place of specific commemmoration for a particular nation whose troops took part, hence the lack of a Union Flag. 

 

 

Edited 22 April , 2019 by Michael Thomson

[DarrellDuthie]

Beaumont-Hamel Newfoundland Memorial (aka Newfoundland Park, spoken newfoundland very quickly, or newFOUNDland, by some) was chosen by the Dominion of Newfoundland (since 1949 a Canadian province) as it's principle memorial for the Great War. The land was subsequently purchased by the Nfld government in the '20s with many private donations. The point of these memorials was to highlight the sacrifice and importance of the various dominions' contributions to the war - apart from the broader and much larger British Army in which they served,  and in whose name their wartime experiences are very often summarized in the popular narrative of the war. As such the park is meant as a tribute to Newfoundland's soldiers - not a history of this piece of France - although Imperial regiments and divisions are by no means glossed over at the site. It is a fascinating spot to visit and quite unique: the ground, like at Vimy, is virtually untouched since the war, with all its shell-torn imperfections. However, this explains the choice of flags. Frankly, I can't see why any of this would be insensitive, even in the politically-correct times we find ourselves...?

 

[trenchtrotter]

It does annoy me that the whole story is not told. The Border regiment and the South Wales Borderers to name two. Of course the Essex Regiment. It can be a Newfoundland Park but more too?

[Scalyback]

The 51st(Highland) Division memorial is within the "grounds". I do like the quite towards Y ravine and the small cemetery on the left as you look towards Y ravine. 

 

Attended a cadet camp in Canada. Newfoundland cadets did have a very quick speech pattern and I found "New fin laand" the nearest phonetically. Say it very quickly!