William George Stubbs, Liverpool Regt.

[Top notch]

I am trying to find information on William George Stubbs, Service No. 75437, Liverpool Regiment.

 

William George Stubbs was my brother- in -laws Grandfather. He knows very little of his Grandfather's WW1 service, but has his 1914 Star, Victory Medal and British War Medal.

What intrigues him is that his Grandfather was born and raised in Malvern, Worcestershire, was working in a quarry in Malvern up to the outbreak of war, but he joined the Liverpool regiment in 1914. How was that, wouldn't he have joined the Worcesters?

Any help or advice, from members, would be much appreciated.

[daggers]

There was a well-established firm of stone merchants in Liverpool with Stubbs in the name.  I left this reply thinking someone would have come in with a better reply.

Could that be a link?

many men joined regiments with no local link, so there is no surprise about his joining one from another area.

D

[Top notch]

Thanks for that Daggers.

He was a very "humble" man, never moved far from home all his life, hence wondering why he chose the Liverpool Regt? Unless, there was a relative Stubbs, in Liverpool stone trade, hence his enlisting there? How will I find out?

 

[kenf48]

Will(iam)George Stubbs 75437 Liverpool Regiment/51400 Labour Corps was not, according to extant Records, entitled to a 1914 Star.  

 

Based on near number sampling he probably enlisted under the Derby Scheme and was called up for service in March 1917 when he was posted to the 21 Labour Company of the King’s (Liverpool) Regiment.  Men in this number series went to France shortly afterwards on the 20th March.  On 13 May 1917 these men were transferred to the Labour Corps it appears this unit became 86 Company Labour Corps as most of the men were transferred to this unit.

 

To put this in context there was an acute manpower shortage in early 1917 and many men who had secured exemption from military service at the local tribunal had that exemption withdrawn.  Men who were in the Army Reserve were mobilised.  It may be he was not fit enough for the infantry, e.g. poor eyesight, flat feet etc., or had special skills needed in the Labour Company.  By 1917 men were simply sent where the Army could best use them.  After the war he continued in service in the Territorial Army, formed in 1920, as a Driver.

 

Ken 

 

 

Edited 20 April , 2019 by kenf48

[Top notch]

Ken,

Thank you so much for this information.

What I find confusing is that my Brother-in-law actually has all 3 medals, the 1914 Star included and all stamped Private W.G.Stubbs 75437 . Also, from your findings, he had another service number, 51400, to the Labour Corps, is this the same man, I thought they had one number for the duration of service?

To clarify, you don't think he joined up in 1914? Or he volunteered in 1914, but due to fitness, exemption, etc. was not utilised until 1917 but still in the Liverpool Regt. but now attached to their labour Company?

Interesting about the driver, we know he was a lorry driver until his retirement.

I would appreciate if you could clarify my queries?

Thanks again,

Eddie.

[ss002d6252]

Quote

What I find confusing is that my Brother-in-law actually has all 3 medals, the 1914 Star included and all stamped Private W.G.Stubbs 75437

It is sometimes the case that men did obtain medals where they thought they should have had them and renamed them themselves - it is something to keep in mind when medal awards look odd. It does need looked at further.

 

A 1914 star would require him to have served overseas before 23 Nov 1914, the 1914-15 star was awarded for the same up to 31 Dec 1915.
 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

2 hours ago, Top notch said:

Ken,

Thank you so much for this information.

What I find confusing is that my Brother-in-law actually has all 3 medals, the 1914 Star included and all stamped Private W.G.Stubbs 75437 . Also, from your findings, he had another service number, 51400, to the Labour Corps, is this the same man, I thought they had one number for the duration of service?

To clarify, you don't think he joined up in 1914? Or he volunteered in 1914, but due to fitness, exemption, etc. was not utilised until 1917 but still in the Liverpool Regt. but now attached to their labour Company?

Interesting about the driver, we know he was a lorry driver until his retirement.

I would appreciate if you could clarify my queries?

Thanks again,

Eddie.

Can you post a picture of the back and front of the star ?

Craig

[Top notch]

Hi Craig,

Thanks for your message.

I will see my brother-in-law and check the medal and see just which one it is and get back to you.

Eddie

[kenf48]

His medal index card is on Ancestry, and they are free to view,this is the link though you may have to go through some sort of registration to access it.

It can also be downloaded from the National Archives.

This weekend I believe Ancestry is free so you can also access the Labour Corps Medal Rolls. See

The card shows three numbers, 75437 the number he had when he landed in France and the number which will be inscribed on the rim of the two 'war medals'.

The second number is the Labour Corps, he was serving with that unit when he was discharged from the Army, and the records office of that unit administered the issue of the medals.  In 1920 soldiers were given an Army number, prior to that date they were issued with regimental numbers which were changed on transfer, some men have over half a dozen numbers.

 

The third number shown on the card is a post war TA number and although not relevant to his WW1 Service his record may be held by the MOD at Glasgow, though to be honest I don't know if they kept TA soldiers' records.

 

He did not join up in 1914, as Craig has pointed out the 14 Star had limited eligibility and was almost exclusively granted to pre-war Regulars.  That leaves the 14 -15 Star, the eligibility for which was until 31st December 1915, i.e. pre - conscription.  To be awarded the Star a man had to be a volunteer.  Again as Craig has said there are instances of this medal being 'self awarded' and often this was because a man was serving in 1915 but was on home service and did not enter a theatre of war.  In Pte Stubbs case this is confirmed by the medal index card and medal rolls which show no entitlement to this medal.

 

Turning to his service, the only numbers relevant to to the issue of medals was the first unit and the last, any service at home was irrelevant.  Some Rolls are quite extensive but not the Labour Corps.

 

Therefore we know nothing of any service prior to his posting to the King's (Liverpool) Regiment. There are chums on the forum who have a deep and specialist knowledge of this regiment, unfortunately I'm not one of them.  However the numbers show that he joined the regiment in March 1917 prior to being posted overseas as above, and numbers issued around his number were posted to the 21st Labour Company.  Again this Company is not mentioned on the LLT and may have been formed specifically for overseas service. We do not know anything about any service prior to this posting, it is possible he served in a home employment company of the Liverpool or some other regiment and therefore considered he was entitled to the 14-15 Star, or as I previously posted he may have enlisted under the Derby Scheme at the end of 1915 and was placed on the Army Reserve.

 

We can however be 100% certain as to his posting to the Labour Corps in May 1917. See LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-labour-corps-of-1917-1918/. as I said, most but not necessarily all were posted to 86 Company.

 

Ke

 

 

[Top notch]

Ken,

Thank you very much for such an indepth reply. I found it most helpfull and your reply and those of other members has given me a much clearer picture.

I will relay everything to my Brother-in-law and he will have a good foundation from which to further research his grandfather.

Thanks, again, to everyone.

Eddie.