Who collided with 2nd Lt A Rosenthal?

[Perth Digger]

Another RFC pilot who has a stained-glass war memorial window dedicated to him in Kent is 2nd Lt Louis Marshall of 65 Squadron. In some accounts he was thought to have died when colliding with another 65 Squadron Camel flown by 2nd Lt A. Rosenthal over Becelaire. In other accounts he is thought to have been shot down and that Rosenthal collided with Lt Cecil Keller, who was forced down uninjured and made a POW. In his authoritative book on RFC/RAF casualties during the war Trevor Henshaw accepts the latter interpretation on the basis of timings drawn from combat reports, although he points out that Keller, in his post-repatriation report, did not mention a collision. Interestingly, Guy Mainwaring Knocker, a 65 Squadron pilot who flew that day, has given both explanations in different sources. In a thread on this Forum in 2011 Simon Birch transcribed some notes that Knocker wrote after the war. In these he has a list of the 'Originals' of the Squadron in which he writes that both Rosenthal and Marshall were killed after a collision on 23 November 1917. Keller is noted just as a POW. Yet in Knocker's grandson's edition of his grandfather's diary and letters, published in 2008, the diary entry for 23 November reads: "N[orthern] O[ffensive] P[atrol] at 11-12. ... Rosenthal collided with Keller. Both killed - an awful sight".

 

I have no reason at all to doubt Trevor's interpretation, but I am interested to know where the original information that Marshall was in the collision came from. According to Marshall's Service Record (WO 339/111030), his family believed he died in the collision (or, at least, his father assumed so). Marshall was eventually officially presumed dead on 18 March 1918, but there had been information on Marshall's fate beforehand. First was the news that a 'message had dropped into our lines from a German aeroplane stating this officer is dead'. The date this occurred is not given, but it was reported to the War Office on  GHQ List 1208 (and was certainly before 28 December 1917). Subsequently an ICRC report from Geneva stated that the German Red Cross had confirmed Marshall's death and that he had been 'buried on spot at Becelaire' (his body was not found after the war). Marshall's father received this news from Geneva on 14 March 1918. He was resigned to his son's death before that. He wrote to the War Office on 14 March: 'On that date [23 November] 2 others of his Squadron (65th) were also reported missing. One of his patrol (Keller) landed unwounded and was subsequently heard of as a prisoner. My son and Rosenthal (of the other patrol of the same squadron) must have been in the 2 machines that collided in the cloud'. This sounds as if the father knew there had been a collision but assumed that because Keller was unwounded he could not have been involved. 

 

This Service Record material does not help  explain where the story of Marshall being in the collision comes from, but it does muddy the water a little about who was involved in the collision.

 

Any thoughts gratefully received.

 

Mike

[Simon Birch]

Mike,

 

I cannot add much to your analysis. You would think that Keller would have mentioned any collision upon his return - although it is by no means certain that he did. The Camel File has Marshall as being shot down by Lt d R Bongartz from Jasta 36 at 11.25 over Becelaere-Dadizelle. I have just looked at the Sqd Record Book for Friday 23/11/1917. Both Marshall and Keller left at the same time - and both are given just as 'missing.' Rosenthal had left slightly earlier - and his return is marked as 'collided and broke up in the air over Passchendaele. Without a confirming piece of evidence I fear we will never know.

I do have a copy of a Sqd. photo, taken at Wye just before they left for France. It have Marshall, Keller and Rosenthal on it; PM if you would like a copy.

 

Simon 

 

 

[Perth Digger]

HI Simon

Thanks for taking an interest and for looking up the Record Book for that day. The Camel File points towards Keller, but if Rosenthal broke up in the air might that not suggest a significant collision? Keller appears to have landed unwounded. Rather lucky if he had been involved in a significant collision. If it were Keller, his failure to mention it must have been deliberate, I think (either worried about possible consequences or feelings of guilt?). A much bigger stretch in imagination would be Rosenthal hitting an aircraft already on its way down.

 

I suppose it's just one of those tiny unsolvable mysteries that crop so often when looking at individuals in action.

 

Mike

[Simon Birch]

No Worries.

 

I agree with your comment about Keller - it is possible that he would be nervous of possible consequences. As far as I know he left no diaries or papers - I seem to remember that he moved to Australia in around 1920. Given that the weather that day was so poor a collision 

 

Sorry I cannot tell you more - I did have a look at each AIR76, and the casualty cards at Hendon, but they gave me no further clues. If another name crops up in 65 Sqd. let me know. I have an almost complete set of record book entries (Aug 1918 were nicked from Kew some years ago) - and complete sets of the combat reports.

 

Simon