Command & Control on the Battlefield

[mikereme]

Hi Everyone

 

Could you please help me with the following;

• How the Command and Control (C&C) to units (sub-units) was delivered during the height of Battle?.
• How was Fire Control instructed during poor visibility (Smoke Shells used onto the position)?. 
• Was there an alternative signal system employed (other than telephone etc)?.

 

I thank you in anticiptaion

[Marilyne]

Hi,

 

That's quite a question, because it evolved over the four years of war and was an integral part of the "learning curve" of the British army.

There's quite some books you can consult on the evolution of tactics on the front, but ion a very small nutshell:

• Orders and reports during the battle were delivered by runners ... plural, because that was one of the most dangerous jobs on the front, or using messenger dogs at the lower levels. Telefones could be used pending the lines were not disrupted because destroyed in the first minutes of battle (which was quite often the case).  Troop movements could also be reported to the higher echelon by plane, signalling with colour codes or simply by drawing a situation and dropping it.
• Fire Control in low vis was tricky. Correction on fire was, by the end of the war, done by the RFC and RAF. But that would not work in bad weather or if visibility was too low. There were more possibilities, but for a more comprehensive explanation, I'd ask a specialist in artillery.
• as said higher up, the use of runners and messenger dogs was quite common.

M.

[mikereme]

4 minutes ago, Marilyne said:

Hi,

 

That's quite a question, because it evolved over the four years of war and was an integral part of the "learning curve" of the British army.

There's quite some books you can consult on the evolution of tactics on the front, but ion a very small nutshell:

• Orders and reports during the battle were delivered by runners ... plural, because that was one of the most dangerous jobs on the front, or using messenger dogs at the lower levels. Telefones could be used pending the lines were not disrupted because destroyed in the first minutes of battle (which was quite often the case).  Troop movements could also be reported to the higher echelon by plane, signalling with colour codes or simply by drawing a situation and dropping it.
• Fire Control in low vis was tricky. Correction on fire was, by the end of the war, done by the RFC and RAF. But that would not work in bad weather or if visibility was too low. There were more possibilities, but for a more comprehensive explanation, I'd ask a specialist in artillery.
• as said higher up, the use of runners and messenger dogs was quite common.

M.

Hi M,

 

Great thank you....Runners were my thought at first.

 

Mike

[AOK4]

There's way more: light signals, flare signals, pigeons, runners, messenger dogs, earth telegraphy, colored pieces of fabric to inform airplanes, telephone, telegraph, ... Usually a combination was used when the battle was really fierce to increase the chances of getting the message through.

[mikereme]

31 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

There's way more: light signals, flare signals, pigeons, runners, messenger dogs, earth telegraphy, colored pieces of fabric to inform airplanes, telephone, telegraph, ... Usually a combination was used when the battle was really fierce to increase the chances of getting the message through.

Hi Buddy,

thank you so much you have helped me in the past...apart from Runners would there be any other means of communication (fire Control) to sub-sections of MGs to Co-ordinate the  fire from the HQ's during low visibility or Smoke Bombardment

[BullerTurner]

Don't forget semaphore??  Every Boy Scout Church Lad and Boys Brigader would have known it!  Signallers definitely would - the trade badge for signaller to this day reflects the flags used.  As does the nickname used in some regiments, "flaggie".

[mikereme]

15 hours ago, BullerTurner said:

Don't forget semaphore??  Every Boy Scout Church Lad and Boys Brigader would have known it!  Signallers definitely would - the trade badge for signaller to this day reflects the flags used.  As does the nickname used in some regiments, "flaggie".

B,

 

Of course thank you.....what would you recommend for poor visibility?...the only one I can see at the moment is Runner!

[healdav]

Some men had coloured panels on their backs so that the advance could be seen. Not much good in poor visibility. In fact, keeping a check on where the troops had got to was one of the major problems in any attack.

[robertb]

mikereme,

You might like to read this: "Command and Control on the Western Front.  The British Army's Experience 1914-18" Eds. Gary Sheffield and Dan Todman [ISBN 1-86227-083-X].   The book examines the role of an army, corps, divisional, brigade and battalion commanders during a battle.

[mikereme]

1 minute ago, robertb said:

mikereme,

You might like to read this: "Command and Control on the Western Front.  The British Army's Experience 1914-18" Eds. Gary Sheffield and Dan Todman [ISBN 1-86227-083-X].   The book examines the role of an army, corps, divisional, brigade and battalion commanders during a battle.

Thank you Robertb...

[BullerTurner]

 

On 12/04/2019 at 07:42, mikereme said:

B,

 

Of course thank you.....what would you recommend for poor visibility?...the only one I can see at the moment is Runner!

 

The principle behind comms is redundancy.  So in poor visibility, whatever was the primary mode (e.g. Field Telephone, would be backed up by semaphore and that, say, by a runner?  Whether comms is interrupted by weather or enemy operations, this principle stands.  The speed and security of a communication is directly proportional to the technology used, even today.  A runner who gets the message through but scrambles it in his head (think Captain Nolan) is very difficult to deal with!  Unlike a voice comms message, where "Say again" can allow an instantaneous correction of the misunderstanding.

[SiegeGunner]

For comms in the forward trenches during a battle, the Germans generally used runners … who were sometimes also replacements for key personnel who had been wounded or killed.  The opportunity was also often taken to give the runner a bag of grenades and/or a bag of flare cartridges to take with him.  In one report I translated (Somme, I think), the runner was sent up with a bag of bottles of mineral water. 

[MikeMeech]

On 11/04/2019 at 08:04, mikereme said:

Hi Everyone

 

Could you please help me with the following;

• How the Command and Control (C&C) to units (sub-units) was delivered during the height of Battle?.
• How was Fire Control instructed during poor visibility (Smoke Shells used onto the position)?. 
• Was there an alternative signal system employed (other than telephone etc)?.

 

I thank you in anticiptaion

Hi

 

For a general overview there is 'Communications and British Operations on the Western Front, 1914-1918' by Brian N. Hall, CUP, 2017.

 

For details of the systems used during the war then the contemporary documents will give you details, eg.  SS 191 'Intercommunication in the Field' of November 1917 (this replaced SS 148 'Forward Inter-communication in Battle' of March 1917).  SS 135 'Instructions for the Training of Divisions for Offensive Action' of December 1916 (later editions had different titles) includes sections on communication, Appendix 'B' contains 'The Co-operation between Aircraft and Infantry' including the communication instructions.  There are also documents on particular communication means, eg. SS 123 'Notes on the use of Carrier Pigeons' of August 1916.

 

If you look at the battle orders and instructions (the Australian War Memorial website is a good source of these) you will find information on the different communication means used in particular battles at different levels of command.  In a Divisional Signal Instruction for 16 September 1917 the methods included: (a) Telegraph and Telephone.  (b) Visual.  (c) Wireless.  (d) I.T. (Induction Telephone?) and Power Buzzer.  (e)  D.R. (Dispatch Riders).  (f)  Runner Posts.  (g) Pigeons.

 

Runners were sent in pairs on many occasions (50 yards between each), each carried a copy of the message, so not verbal.  Pigeons were also sent in pairs, although if short of birds then one bird and one runner were sent.  The system was flexible and with redundancy.  Message dogs were also used during the war on both sides of the line, indeed the methods used would have been similar in all armies.

 

Personally I have written several articles on air/ground and ground/air communications so I have rather more expertise on the methods used in that system, however, it has meant that I have looked at a fair few sources on communications in general to find the information I have required.   

 

Mike

[mikereme]

18 hours ago, MikeMeech said:

Hi

 

For a general overview there is 'Communications and British Operations on the Western Front, 1914-1918' by Brian N. Hall, CUP, 2017.

 

For details of the systems used during the war then the contemporary documents will give you details, eg.  SS 191 'Intercommunication in the Field' of November 1917 (this replaced SS 148 'Forward Inter-communication in Battle' of March 1917).  SS 135 'Instructions for the Training of Divisions for Offensive Action' of December 1916 (later editions had different titles) includes sections on communication, Appendix 'B' contains 'The Co-operation between Aircraft and Infantry' including the communication instructions.  There are also documents on particular communication means, eg. SS 123 'Notes on the use of Carrier Pigeons' of August 1916.

 

If you look at the battle orders and instructions (the Australian War Memorial website is a good source of these) you will find information on the different communication means used in particular battles at different levels of command.  In a Divisional Signal Instruction for 16 September 1917 the methods included: (a) Telegraph and Telephone.  (b) Visual.  (c) Wireless.  (d) I.T. (Induction Telephone?) and Power Buzzer.  (e)  D.R. (Dispatch Riders).  (f)  Runner Posts.  (g) Pigeons.

 

Runners were sent in pairs on many occasions (50 yards between each), each carried a copy of the message, so not verbal.  Pigeons were also sent in pairs, although if short of birds then one bird and one runner were sent.  The system was flexible and with redundancy.  Message dogs were also used during the war on both sides of the line, indeed the methods used would have been similar in all armies.

 

Personally I have written several articles on air/ground and ground/air communications so I have rather more expertise on the methods used in that system, however, it has meant that I have looked at a fair few sources on communications in general to find the information I have required.   

 

Mike

Hi Mike Brilliant....thank you

20 hours ago, SiegeGunner said:

For comms in the forward trenches during a battle, the Germans generally used runners … who were sometimes also replacements for key personnel who had been wounded or killed.  The opportunity was also often taken to give the runner a bag of grenades and/or a bag of flare cartridges to take with him.  In one report I translated (Somme, I think), the runner was sent up with a bag of bottles of mineral water. 

Siege Gunner... very interesting..

20 hours ago, BullerTurner said:

 

 

The principle behind comms is redundancy.  So in poor visibility, whatever was the primary mode (e.g. Field Telephone, would be backed up by semaphore and that, say, by a runner?  Whether comms is interrupted by weather or enemy operations, this principle stands.  The speed and security of a communication is directly proportional to the technology used, even today.  A runner who gets the message through but scrambles it in his head (think Captain Nolan) is very difficult to deal with!  Unlike a voice comms message, where "Say again" can allow an instantaneous correction of the misunderstanding.

B...once again thank you

[mikereme]

Thank you everyone for all your input....

 

I can assume that the runners (plural) is possibly the safest way to get comms from one location to another.

[BullerTurner]

3 hours ago, mikereme said:

Thank you everyone for all your input....

 

I can assume that the runners (plural) is possibly the safest way to get comms from one location to another.

 

Depends what you mean by safest...certo et cito

Edited 17 April , 2019 by BullerTurner

[BullerTurner]

One of my "favourite" VC stories is that of a runner...Pte James Miller, 7th Royal Lancs

 

"For most conspicuous bravery. His battalion was consolidating a position after its capture by assault. Private Miller was ordered to take an important message under heavy shell and rifle fire, and to bring back a reply at all costs. He was compelled to cross the open, and on leaving the trench was shot almost immediately in the back, the bullet coming through his abdomen. In spite of this, with heroic courage and self-sacrifice, he compressed the gaping wound in his abdomen, delivered his message, staggered back with his answer, and fell dead at the feet of the officer to whom he delivered it. He gave his life with a supreme devotion to duty. "

 

[mikereme]

32 minutes ago, BullerTurner said:

One of my "favourite" VC stories is that of a runner...Pte James Miller, 7th Royal Lancs

 

"For most conspicuous bravery. His battalion was consolidating a position after its capture by assault. Private Miller was ordered to take an important message under heavy shell and rifle fire, and to bring back a reply at all costs. He was compelled to cross the open, and on leaving the trench was shot almost immediately in the back, the bullet coming through his abdomen. In spite of this, with heroic courage and self-sacrifice, he compressed the gaping wound in his abdomen, delivered his message, staggered back with his answer, and fell dead at the feet of the officer to whom he delivered it. He gave his life with a supreme devotion to duty. "

 

 Runners was an unenviable task...not the safest as you interpreted from my message lol 

[Marilyne]

5 hours ago, mikereme said:

 

 

I can assume that the runners (plural) is possibly the safest way to get comms from one location to another.

 

definitely plural ... to make sure at least one reaches destination.

I forgot about pigeons... the unsung heroes of the war indeed!!! Look at Vaillant, Raynald's last pigeon out of Fort Vaux, who died delivering his message. ...

interesting fact: when looking at the recipients of the Dickin medal, of the 54 up to date, 34 (over half of them) went to pigeons!!!

 

M.

[mikereme]

32 minutes ago, Marilyne said:

 

definitely plural ... to make sure at least one reaches destination.

I forgot about pigeons... the unsung heroes of the war indeed!!! Look at Vaillant, Raynald's last pigeon out of Fort Vaux, who died delivering his message. ...

interesting fact: when looking at the recipients of the Dickin medal, of the 54 up to date, 34 (over half of them) went to pigeons!!!

 

M.

Thank you M...Unsung heroes...

[BullerTurner]

Possession of a homing pigeon in occupied France carried serious penalties.  Possession of several carried the death penalty!

[mikereme]

3 hours ago, BullerTurner said:

Possession of a homing pigeon in occupied France carried serious penalties.  Possession of several carried the death penalty!

Captain Blackadder (Flanders Pigeon Murderer) springs to mind...

[Keith Brannen]

46 minutes ago, mikereme said:

Captain Blackadder (Flanders Pigeon Murderer) springs to mind...

 

Reminds me of this:

From the 42nd (East Lancashire) Division history (prior to the 1918 German Offensive):

Pigeons, working in pairs, were proving very useful at this period, and “Signals” thought it might be a good thing to teach our Portuguese allies something about the pigeon service. They accordingly sent two pairs of birds to the Portuguese Staff, with instructions as to their use, and awaited results. The Pigeons did not return to the loft, but next day a very polite note arrived, thanking “our comrades, the British officers, for their hospitality.”

[mikereme]

4 minutes ago, Keith Brannen said:

 

Reminds me of this:

From the 42nd (East Lancashire) Division history (prior to the 1918 German Offensive):

Pigeons, working in pairs, were proving very useful at this period, and “Signals” thought it might be a good thing to teach our Portuguese allies something about the pigeon service. They accordingly sent two pairs of birds to the Portuguese Staff, with instructions as to their use, and awaited results. The Pigeons did not return to the loft, but next day a very polite note arrived, thanking “our comrades, the British officers, for their hospitality.”

Typical...

[Keith Brannen]

On a more serious note. From the 1/8th Bn Manchester Regiment War Diary (September 1917, near Frezenberg) examples of Runner and Rocket Systems: