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Carcharodon

What Are These?

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Carcharodon

I’ve been tasked with identifying some items in the collection at a local museum. I’ve been able to identify many of them, but two in particular have proven frustratingly difficult to identify. The first looks like a practice bomb of some sort, but I’m not sure what it is. It was purchased at a flea market from a man who claimed to have found it near an old base in the Great Lakes area. The other is a set of fins collected by a soldier from a World War I battlefield and brought home as a souvenir. Here are some pictures of the items. Does anyone have any idea what they could be?

 

 

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E3B4D0B5-50D9-4A07-9355-D988083E9B2E.jpeg

86068EFD-252C-44F2-8906-711D30F588E7.jpeg

92B7F544-0B8E-4D6B-B6A7-81B310760654.jpeg

95081357-943F-406E-BCD4-618C345C0686.jpeg

E18273A6-6877-4362-9583-E8C39F70461A.jpeg

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WK 361 LP

Hello,

This set of fins seems to be for french 60 mm Brant pneumatic mortar WW1.

Hope this help you,

JM

 

P1080649.JPG

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Carcharodon
8 hours ago, WK 361 LP said:

Hello,

This set of fins seems to be for french 60 mm Brant pneumatic mortar WW1.

Hope this help you,

JM

 

P1080649.JPG

Thank you so much! That looks exactly like the fins in the collection. Now, if only I could identify the larger artifact.

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4thGordons

Complete guess here but is it perhaps a towing drogue or paravane of some sort?

 

I recall seeing something similar that was used on the end of long minsweeping nets or lines towed out behind a minsweeper I believe their purpose was to weight the line and also to keep the tow relatively straight. I know the actual paravanes themselves were much larger but I wondered (given the eye and cable) if it was not some sort of weight for the line?

 

As I say - a pure guess.

Chris

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mills-bomb

The first one is definitely a computer mouse, probably microsoft, circa 2010-2011.

🥴

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Carcharodon
19 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Complete guess here but is it perhaps a towing drogue or paravane of some sort?

 

I recall seeing something similar that was used on the end of long minsweeping nets or lines towed out behind a minsweeper I believe their purpose was to weight the line and also to keep the tow relatively straight. I know the actual paravanes themselves were much larger but I wondered (given the eye and cable) if it was not some sort of weight for the line?

 

As I say - a pure guess.

Chris

Would such a thing be found around the Great Lakes? I know some minesweepers were built on the Great Lakes, but were there any training exercises there during World War I? Also, I don’t think you can rely on the cable for identification. It’s probably not original. The artifact may have been hung up as a decoration at one point. The eye is likely original, though, but I’m not 100% certain. We don’t have any documentation of the artifacts history here at the museum besides what the seller told us. All we know is that it was found somewhere around the Great Lakes, and the seller claimed it was found on a bombing range at an old base.

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Dave66

I'm wondering if it's some sort of practice bomb, may be an avenue worth exploring.

 

Dave.

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Carcharodon
2 hours ago, Dave66 said:

I'm wondering if it's some sort of practice bomb, may be an avenue worth exploring.

 

Dave.

Do you know anything about WWI practice bombs? I haven’t been able to find much information, and the examples I’ve found don’t match the artifact. 

Edited by Carcharodon

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Dave66
17 minutes ago, Carcharodon said:

Do you know anything about WWI practice bombs? I haven’t been able to find much information, and the examples I’ve found don’t match the artifact. 

Sorry, not an expert bit it does seem to resemble a very large flachette dart...there's one on here...http://www.big-ordnance.com/Flechettes/Flechettes.htm

 

Dave.

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Gunner Hall

It looks like a mini paravane to me, at least that was my first impression.  Given that the main purpose of a paravane is to ensure that the cutting cable is held both taught and at a set depth,  could this not be some part of trawling (Commercial Fishing)  gear?  Keeping the mouth of a net open?   A total confection of whimsey and conjecture on my part, BTW.

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SiegeGunner

The long-tailed jobbie with a mobile eye attachment looks like a line-throwing projectile to be fired from some sort of projector.  Designed not to land on the target, but to straddle it, allowing the trailing line to be easily recovered.

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Gunner Hall

Good call, Siegegunner - like the rocket fired out of projector for a "Breeches Buoy"  

Lifesaving_Apparatus_Drill._1940,_at_An_East_Coast_Coastguard_Station._Every_Coastguard_Station_Is_Fitted_With_Lifesaving_Apparatus_Which_Is_Fitted_With_R.jpg

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Carcharodon
8 hours ago, Gunner Hall said:

Good call, Siegegunner - like the rocket fired out of projector for a "Breeches Buoy"  

Lifesaving_Apparatus_Drill._1940,_at_An_East_Coast_Coastguard_Station._Every_Coastguard_Station_Is_Fitted_With_Lifesaving_Apparatus_Which_Is_Fitted_With_R.jpg

Do you think it was from a breeches buoy? It doesn’t look like it to me, though I’m not exactly an expert on rope-based rescue devices. On top of that, the thing weighs nearly ten pounds. That’s a bit on the heavy side for something used to launch rope in that manner, don’t you think?

Edited by Carcharodon

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SiegeGunner

If it was meant to be towed, the eye would on the point of its nose.  The position of the eye and the loop attached to it suggest a trailing line.  The tail-fins are not very big, but perhaps big enough, in conjunction with the long shaft, to stabilise the head in flight.  So unless it is meant to be dropped vertically for some purpose, I still think it is a projectile, even weighing 10 pounds.    

Edited by SiegeGunner

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4thGordons
9 minutes ago, SiegeGunner said:

If it was meant to be towed, the eye would on the point of its nose.  

Not sure this is necessarily true - think of the design of some fishing lures.

Also ,if it was a weight on a line running perpendicular to the direction of tow (ie a cross line), then the eyelet might well be placed in this position.

 

Chris

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Carcharodon
On 15/04/2019 at 14:06, Dave66 said:

Sorry, not an expert bit it does seem to resemble a very large flachette dart...there's one on here...http://www.big-ordnance.com/Flechettes/Flechettes.htm

 

Dave.

Did they even make flachette darts that size? All of the examples I’ve seen were much smaller than this artifact. If it was dropped from a plane, my guess would be that it is a practice bomb.

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Chasemuseum
On 16/04/2019 at 20:03, Gunner Hall said:

It looks like a mini paravane to me, at least that was my first impression.  Given that the main purpose of a paravane is to ensure that the cutting cable is held both taught and at a set depth,  could this not be some part of trawling (Commercial Fishing)  gear?  Keeping the mouth of a net open?   A total confection of whimsey and conjecture on my part, BTW. 

That was my first thought when I saw the photo, that I had seen photos of something like this during WW2 for that purpose. I have not had any luck finding a photo to confirm this. Did they ever train trawler crews in mine sweeping on the Great Lakes ? I have absolutely no idea.

 

However I think "a mini paravane to weight a mine sweeping cable" is an avenue worthy of further research, but I would suggest WW2 not WW1.

Cheers

Ross

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SiegeGunner
On ‎18‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 19:48, 4thGordons said:

Not sure this is necessarily true - think of the design of some fishing lures.

 

But aren't such lures designed to induce 'jiggle' and 'flutter' to simulate the movement of a bait fish?

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Gunner Hall

A "Google" image search for paravane produces a host of images of kit with the towing eye posistioned exactly where this one is.  I'm totally out of my depth here,  (no joke intended) but i suppose the towing eye in this position would allow the thing to reach a greater depth?   If it was placed at the apex of the device, would it not simply just be dragged through the water at an upward angle, - rather than "swimming"  horizontally?  

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SiegeGunner

Likewise out of my depth here, but realising that if towed, the towing line would bring the eye on the 'thing' to the top, as it were, and make it swim straight and level.

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Carcharodon

I see that many people are as stumped as I am. It’s definitely a curious artifact. 

 

There are other objects in the museum’s collection that should be easier to identify. Here are three objects that I know I’ve seen somewhere before, but I can’t remember where. It’s been driving me nuts. Does anyone here recognize them?

 

B0539263-A16D-47BF-B7DB-8E53EE3B7CC3.jpeg

4FDFFC34-FAD2-4415-B6D0-1BC8BAD45489.jpeg

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Carcharodon

Is it possible the strange bomb-shaped object was designed as a weight for trailing cable for purposes besides minesweeping, such as a radio line?

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WK 361 LP

Hello,
They are protection covers for French hand grenade  "citron Foug "1916.On your pics, the right and central are the round protective cover of the second type. On the right there are 2 protective covers, one in the other. A round one in a flat cover of the third type. Finally, there was one first pointed type, missing in the photo.

Regards

JM

621282895_Sanstitrea.png.f8f775ac27d0f3a7002f0cae7bc7405e.png657062306_Gr-Ma-Def-CitronFoug-Mle1916-01.jpg.48b5a95b858cd2ec2e09630edc6f9969.jpg717231479_12220856_pKL.JPG.537a4adadc3cc911e314d4717ccedbc1.JPG

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WK 361 LP

Second round cover off and grenade....

JM

DSC03589.JPG

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Carcharodon
Posted (edited)
On 26/04/2019 at 14:16, WK 361 LP said:

Second round cover off and grenade....

JM

DSC03589.JPG

Thank you! I knew I’d seen those caps somewhere! We actually have a few parts and fragments for citron Foug 1916 grenades in the collection. We’ll probably reconstruct one for display.

 

I actually have another grenade fragment of interest that I’ve been examining. Take a look. Notice what appears to be the initials FA on the side of the fragment? It kind of reminds manufacturers mark the Frankford Arsenal placed on munitions they made, but I don’t know if they made fragmentation grenades like this. Any thoughts on what it could mean?

 

488E1515-B807-49D3-BE67-70F90CE17F85.jpeg

345B6556-367C-4475-99EC-A2AA032F6954.jpeg

Edited by Carcharodon

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