Help Identify Cap/Collar Badge

[Chef_Hendrix]

Good Evening All,

 

I am wondering if anyone can help me. I was shown the picture below by the cousin of my late Grandad and she has told me that it is of her Grandad Alexander Tait, born around 1880 in Newcastle and is from when he was in the FWW.

 

However i think (almost certain!) the picture was at least made around WW2 as it very similar to a picture of her Mother who was in the WRNS in the 1940s, but hers appears to be a photo whereas this appears to be a drawing. It could be that it was made from an old FWW picture to go with the WRNS picture when she had it taken, but curious to think what any members of the forum think?

 

If anyone believes that it may be FWW can anyone identify the badges in the picture? If the general consensus is that it is from WW2 I will ask over on the WW2Talk forum.

 

Kind regards

 

Gaz

[mark holden]

That badges are for the General Service Corps. Judging by the cap chinstrap I would say First World War.

[Dave1418]

Hi

Id say he has the General service cap badge and collars.

The cap may be the officers version of a soft or trench cap variety and has the thin chin strap which would put it more towards WW1 

[FROGSMILE]

General Service ‘List’ insignia for officers either, not allocated or serving in capacities not easily allocated to established corps.

[clk]

Hi Gaz,

 

If he was born c1880, and had service after the early 1920's, he should appear in the index that the MoD published for service files still in their holding. I didn't see anything obvious though.

 

 

Accepting the limitations of the 'long number' officer indices (tor example not recording any TF men), it would seem that you may be left with an Alexander who either served with the Royal Engineers, or the Labour Corps. 

 

Image source: The National Archives - file WO 338/19/1

 

Whilst he may not be either of those men. the National Archives has a file for the Labour Corp man (see here), and the RE man (also apparently Durham Light Infantry - linked by the originating file reference here).

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

It is a retouched photograph.

In the olden days, photography was quite hit or miss, and could often give a photograph that was under or over exposed and lacking in much contrast detail. The photographer would then touch up features like eyes ,  noses, eyebrows and other facial details, then photograph the worked on photograph. This was particularly common if photographs were to appear in the press, because of the extremely low resolution of newspaper photos at the time.

The photograph can take on an unnatural  appearance.

The other thing that happened (and I think that's happened here), is that the image has been cut out and pasted on a different background.

This is the origin of the terms "Cut" "Paste", Dodge, Burn, Mask etc, that are still in use today in Photoshop.

You can see gross examples of such manipulation  in some of the many images of soldiers that appeared in Great War newspapers, when they volunteered, or went off to war, or if they were killed.

Lots of the images have been retouched and look most unnatural.

The other groups who had this treatment between the wars also, were sports stars whose newspaper images often only bore a fleeting resemblance to their real selves.

[FROGSMILE]

There are no rank stars (pips) on the shoulder straps so that certainly suggests a WW1 rather than WW2 photo.  The Labour Corps wore general list badges until receiving their own pattern of badge in the last year of the war.

[CorporalPunishment]

That cap looks like a "Gor Blimey" to me.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

That cap looks like a "Gor Blimey" to me.   Pete.

 

Yes, I think you're right.  Further confirmation that it's WW1.

Edited 10 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

12 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

There are no rank stars (pips) on the shoulder straps so that certainly suggests a WW1 rather than WW2 photo.  The Labour Corps wore general list badges until receiving their own pattern of badge in the last year of the war.

Agreed with FROGSMILE with regard to this chap possibly being Labour Corps, as he said, the LC pick and shovel badges were not issued til the last few months of the war, so the Royal arms badges were worn by the LC, even though a number of Officers and men clung on to their original cap badges if they were originally from a Labour Battalion, concerted to LC.

 

Chris

[Chef_Hendrix]

Thank you everyone for your help, I shall pass on the info you have provided to his Grandaughter.

 

Further evidence I have since discovered is the man in question died in the 30s, so most definitely FWW. He was in the timber and lime trade, so not sure if that sheds any more possibilities on his role during the FWW. 

 

What threw me initially was that the two pictures are identical almost every way, same size (forgot to measure but roughly 6x9"), border, backing, maker (Hy. Walker, Ellison Villas, Gateshead) and so i believe must have been made/commissioned by his Daughter at the same time as the picture of her with perhaps an original picture long gone.

 

I've attached the unedited photos for clarity(excuse the feet!)

 

I'll do some digging with all the help above and see what else I can find out.

 

Thanks again

 

Gaz

 

[FROGSMILE]

His experience in the timber trade would have been relevant to his usefulness in the Labour Corps, whose many tasks in the field involved the use of timber, including trench and subterranean  mining props, railway sleepers, and corduroy road making.