1st Armoured Train RGA composition question.

[Dragoon]

Hello good people of the forum.

I started a thread with regard to my Great Uncle, 7755 Alf Kiddell RGA and received excellent (as usual ) answers.

What I would like to know please is the composition of the Armoured Train RGA, was the train completely manned by RGA personnel or were there other Corps or units etc Manning positions on the train, were the RGA there just for the gun?

Also, are there any pictures of British Armoured trains, especially 1st AT.

One more, if I may, what would Alf's job have been possibly?

 

Your time and help, as always, is greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

Edited 8 April , 2019 by Dragoon

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Chris

 

At the outbreak of war, the Royal Navy furnished three armoured trains for use in Flanders: they were called Churchill, Jellicoe and De Guise and were manned by RN (and possibly some RM) personnel. They had six-inch and 4.7-inch naval guns.

 

By late 1915 they were consolidated into a single train, No.1 AT, which was equipped with two 6-inch naval guns and (I think) some machine guns. Nominally a unit of the RGA, it may still have contained some of the original RN/RM personnel, as well as some RE personnel to operate the train itself. It had four officers and between 40 and 49 other ranks - the figures were tweaked a bit from time to time. I'm afraid that I can't give you a detailed breakdown of the manpower but if you can make a visit to Kew, I can give you the file reference for the relevant official war establishments.

 

There is a book Naval Guns in Flanders by "L F R", which is available in paperback from Naval & Military Press, reprinted from a copy in the Central Library in RMA Sandhurst. It contains a number of photos and Appendix I even lists the other-rank men who manned "Jellicoe". A gun detachment consisted of a Petty Officer gunlayer, a leading seaman and four or five (depending on the calibre) able seamen. The text also contains an amusing account of the use of an imitation cow as a sniper post (pages 112-115).

 

Ron

 

 

Edited 9 April , 2019 by Ron Clifton

[Dragoon]

1 hour ago, Ron Clifton said:

Hello Chris

 

At the outbreak of war, the Royal Navy furnished three armoured trains for use in Flanders: they were called Churchill, Jellicoe and De Guise and were manned by RN (and possibly some RM) personnel. They had six-inch and 4.7-inch naval guns.

 

By late 1915 they were consolidated into a single train, No.1 AT, which was equipped with two 6-inch naval guns and (I think) some machine guns. Nominally a unit of the RGA, it may still have contained some of the original RN/RM personnel, as well as some RE personnel to operate the train itself. It had four officers and between 40 and 49 other ranks - the figures were tweaked a bit from time to time. I'm afraid that I can't give you a detailed breakdown of the manpower but if you can make a visit to Kew, I can give you the file reference for the relevant official war establishments.

 

There is a book Naval Guns in Flanders by "L F R", which is available in paperback from Naval & Military Press, reprinted from a copy in the Central Library in RMA Sandhurst. It contains a number of photos and Appendix I even lists the other-rank men who manned "Jellicoe". A gun detachment consisted of a Petty Officer gunlayer, a leading seaman and four or five (depending on the calibre) able seamen. The text also contains an amusing account of the use of an imitation cow as a sniper post (pages 112-115).

 

Ron

 

 

Fantastic Ron, 

Super information, your time is greatly appreciated, if you could give me Kew file reference that would be great, thank you! 

And cheers for the book to look at, one for a belated birthday present (to myself ha ha).

Best wishes 

 

Chris

[Ron Clifton]

The Kew file references are as follows:

WO 24/904 151-200 Amendments 1915 
     Amdt 161 dated 23/11/15; amdt 182 dated 15/12/15
WO 24/905 201-250 Amendments 1915 
     Amdt 218 dated 1/1/16, amdt 225 dated 8/2/16
WO 24/908 351-400 Amendments 1916 
     Amdt 351/32 dated 18/9/16
 

Each "file" is a small book about an inch thick, containing fifty individual amendments. Amendment 351 contains details of establishments of the whole BEF, each separate table distinguished by /1, /2 etc.

 

The changes between different amendments are very small so you may not need to look at more than one or two.

 

Good hunting! I have spent many a happy hour working through these volumes: by the end of the war there were 2,000 amendments, covering about thirty volumes in all.

 

Ron

[Dragoon]

6 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

Hello Chris

 

At the outbreak of war, the Royal Navy furnished three armoured trains for use in Flanders: they were called Churchill, Jellicoe and De Guise and were manned by RN (and possibly some RM) personnel. They had six-inch and 4.7-inch naval guns.

 

By late 1915 they were consolidated into a single train, No.1 AT, which was equipped with two 6-inch naval guns and (I think) some machine guns. Nominally a unit of the RGA, it may still have contained some of the original RN/RM personnel, as well as some RE personnel to operate the train itself. It had four officers and between 40 and 49 other ranks - the figures were tweaked a bit from time to time. I'm afraid that I can't give you a detailed breakdown of the manpower but if you can make a visit to Kew, I can give you the file reference for the relevant official war establishments.

 

There is a book Naval Guns in Flanders by "L F R", which is available in paperback from Naval & Military Press, reprinted from a copy in the Central Library in RMA Sandhurst. It contains a number of photos and Appendix I even lists the other-rank men who manned "Jellicoe". A gun detachment consisted of a Petty Officer gunlayer, a leading seaman and four or five (depending on the calibre) able seamen. The text also contains an amusing account of the use of an imitation cow as a sniper post (pages 112-115).

 

Ron

 

 

Brilliant, thank you Ron, greatly appreciated 

 

Chris

[Chris_Baker]

If it's of any interest, I recently completed researching an officer of the Royal Engineers Signal Service who worked on 1 Armoured Train.

[cdr]

probably the armoured train De Guise with a Belgian crew (and a lone English sailor) in 1914

 

[Dragoon]

8 hours ago, Chris_Baker said:

If it's of any interest, I recently completed researching an officer of the Royal Engineers Signal Service who worked on 1 Armoured Train.

Hi Chris

That would be of interest please, if you wouldn't mind and if of no trouble.

Thank you, 

Chris

[Dragoon]

5 hours ago, cdr said:

probably the armoured train De Guise with a Belgian crew (and a lone English sailor) in 1914

 

Cheers for the photo cdr, perhaps the sailor is on secondment for training either the Belgians or the other way round?

 

Chris

[cdr]

HMAT De Guise is an interesting unit. 

On 09 Sep 14 Lt Commander Littlejohns arrived in Antwerp with 6 4.7 inch guns and 2 6 inch guns and a small amount of naval gunners. by 15 Sep 14 a first train was ready (probably HMAT Churchill) a few days later HMAT DeGuise followed. HMAT Jellicoe was built in Ostend and used the 6 inch guns. The other trains were built in Antwerp at the Cockerill shipyard.

 

Hmat Deguise was commanded by a Caoitaine Servais and had a crew of 70 Belgians(coming from the fortresses around Antwerp).  English sailors likely served as commanders of the artillery pieces. There are pictures of English sailors on these trains with HMS Excellent on their capband. I think that this refers to the naval artillery school

 

so the picture shows a rare thing: a mixed Anglo Belgian crew

 

Carl 

[Ron Clifton]

HMS Excellent was (and I think still is) the Royal Navy's Gunnery School at Whale Island, off Portsmouth.

 

Ron

[ianjonesncl]

This topic raised interest in 1st Armoured Train RGA. Somehow I can not help thinking it was a bit of a white elephant for what would become two 6 inch guns. It spent a great deal of time at rest, and seems to have been a good place for senior officers to visit. 

 

Blog entry records some of my research.

 

 

 

[Dragoon]

5 hours ago, ianjonesncl said:

This topic raised interest in 1st Armoured Train RGA. Somehow I can not help thinking it was a bit of a white elephant for what would become two 6 inch guns. It spent a great deal of time at rest, and seems to have been a good place for senior officers to visit. 

 

Blog entry records some of my research.

 

 

 

This is wonderful information, thank you very much.

Chris

[Wigeon]

Hi, 

A small amount of additional info regarding No 1 Armoured Train which might be of use.

No 1 Armoured Train converted into 523 Siege Battery RGA , to be equipped with two 9.2-inch Mark 13 Guns, according to an entry in the Battery War Diary for 17th January 1918 , ref WO 95-218-12.. See also the relevant Troop Movement List recording the change in WO 95-186-2. Possibly in error WO 95-5994 places the alteration as occurring a month earlier.

The Battery WD lists the the Engine and RE personnel returning to a ROD on 16 January 1918, with some trucks being withdrawn a few days later. On the 29th the remaining Gun, a 6-inch Mark 2, and its mounting along with its armoured wagon and all gun spares were taken to Bethune and handed over. The next day all remaining rolling stock on charge of the Train was removed. 

523 Siege Battery  appears to have entered action  on 13 March 1918, according to the WD for 55 Brigade RGA, WO 95-545-2.

For those interested in tracing some of the Trains personnel the the 523  Battery WD provides a list of personnel postings and leave movements for January 1918.

The diaries for 26th  Brigade RGA, such as WO 95-218-1, places the Train's activities in a wider operational context . Daily lists of ammunition expended and the number of guns on charge can be found in the First Army admin war diaries, for example WO 95-185-10. 

Regards,

Wigeon

Edited 29 November , 2020 by Wigeon

[Wigeon]

Sorry for the typo , W0 95-5994 should read WO 95-5494.

Wigeon

[ianjonesncl]

Wigeon

 

Many thanks for the additional information.

 

The final end of the Armoured Train was the piece I could not find. 

 

Ian

 

 

 

[Dragoon]

On 29/11/2020 at 23:44, Wigeon said:

Hi, 

A small amount of additional info regarding No 1 Armoured Train which might be of use.

No 1 Armoured Train converted into 523 Siege Battery RGA , to be equipped with two 9.2-inch Mark 13 Guns, according to an entry in the Battery War Diary for 17th January 1918 , ref WO 95-218-12.. See also the relevant Troop Movement List recording the change in WO 95-186-2. Possibly in error WO 95-5994 places the alteration as occurring a month earlier.

The Battery WD lists the the Engine and RE personnel returning to a ROD on 16 January 1918, with some trucks being withdrawn a few days later. On the 29th the remaining Gun, a 6-inch Mark 2, and its mounting along with its armoured wagon and all gun spares were taken to Bethune and handed over. The next day all remaining rolling stock on charge of the Train was removed. 

523 Siege Battery  appears to have entered action  on 13 March 1918, according to the WD for 55 Brigade RGA, WO 95-545-2.

For those interested in tracing some of the Trains personnel the the 523  Battery WD provides a list of personnel postings and leave movements for January 1918.

The diaries for 26th  Brigade RGA, such as WO 95-218-1, places the Train's activities in a wider operational context . Daily lists of ammunition expended and the number of guns on charge can be found in the First Army admin war diaries, for example WO 95-185-10. 

Regards,

Wigeon

Hello Wigeon

This is superb information, thank you for adding it to my thread, I'll download the relevent diaries this afternoon.

Cheers

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ianjonesncl]

Blog entry updated with thanks to Wigeon for finding the war diary entries recording the final breaking up of No 1 Armoured Train when it was re-designated 523 Siege Battery RGA.

 

No1 Armoured Train Royal Garrison Artillery - Northumbrian Gunner meanderings - Great War Forum

[Dragoon]

Thank you so much for tagging me in on this.

Superb work, thank you gentlemen, your time is greatly appreciated.

Really interesting.

Chris

 

[ororkep]

If of interest one Rail Gun of 523 Sge was named 'Tweedledum' (see image below).

I'd love to know if the other was named 'Tweedledee'!

Rgds Paul

 

 

 

Edited 18 December , 2020 by ororkep

[ianjonesncl]

 

17 minutes ago, ororkep said:

If of interest one Rail Gun of 523 Sge was named 'Tweedledum' (see image below).

I'd love to know if the other was named 'Tweedledee'!

Rgds Paul

 

 

 

 

Paul

 

Cracking photo. 😊

 

I would guess the other gun would be 'Tweedledee'. 

 

Ian

[Dragoon]

On 18/12/2020 at 21:58, ororkep said:

If of interest one Rail Gun of 523 Sge was named 'Tweedledum' (see image below).

I'd love to know if the other was named 'Tweedledee'!

Rgds Paul

 

 

 

Hi Paul

Amazing photo! Thank you.

May I ask where you got it?

 

Chris