Sons of Dr Joseph Francis O'Carroll

[Ronan McGreevy]

Hi folks, 

 

I am looking for some information on the two sons of this man who were killed during the war. 

O'Carroll was the president of the Royal College of Surgeons of Ireland (RCSI) who handed back his OBE in 1920 in protest at the Black and Tans in Ireland. 

Once again thanks in advance. 

Regards, 

Ronan 

[corisande]

I thought that he was President of the Royal College of Physicians in Ireland (ratrher than Surgeons) - I might say in passing that my own father later held the position as President of RCPI

From their web site - click for his CV on the RCPI site

During the 1914-1918 war,he was Consulting Physician to the British Forces in Ireland with the rank of Colonel. He sadly lost two sons in the Great War. Having been awarded the OBEfor his wartime services,he later relinquished it owing to his disagreeing with Auxiliary Police Activities in Ireland.He wrote in October 1920 to the Secretary of State at the HomeOffice: ‘Now that the Parliament of the British Empire by the enactment of the so-called Restoration of Order Act and its subsequent administration has deprived my country of all the guarantees of public and private liberty which are supposed to be the marks of the British Empire, I feel that I can no longer with any self-respect remain a member of the Order.’1

[PRC]

First one is:-

 

Second Lieutenant O'CARROLL, FRANK BRENDAN

Died 10/08/1915

Aged 20

6th Bn.
Royal Dublin Fusiliers

Son of Joseph O'Carroll, M.D., F.R.C.P.I., and Frances O'Carroll, of 43, Merrion Square, Dublin.

Commemorated at HELLES MEMORIAL

Location: Turkey (including Gallipoli)

Source: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/689412/o'carroll,-frank-brendan/

 

Just checking out the 1911 Irish census for the names of the other sons.

 

Cheers

Peter

[corisande]

ref click

 

The Dr O’Carroll referred to in this entry was Dr Joseph O’Carroll, a Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland, who was elected President in 1916 for two consecutive sessions. During the War Dr O’Carroll was consultant physician to the Military Heart Hospital and to the Red Cross Hospital in Dublin Castle, and, later, the only consultant physician to the Forces in Ireland, with the rank of Colonel. Dr O’Carroll’s deceased son was Frank Brendan O’Carroll. Born on 18 July 1895, Frank Brendan was a student at University College Dublin in 1914, who intended pursuing a career in law. At the outbreak of the war he applied for and was given a commission with the 6^th Battalion Dublin Fusiliers on 24 September 1914. On 11 July 1915 the 6^th Battalion embarked for action in the Gallipoli Campaign, arriving at Suvla Bay on 6 August. Frank Brendan was killed just four days later on 10 August, three weeks after his twentieth birthday. One of 36,000 killed he has no known grave, but is commemorated on the Helles Memorial in Gallipoli, Turkey.[4] In memory of his son, Dr O’Carroll endowed a bed to the children’s ward in the Richmond Hospital, Whitworth, and commissioned a plaque by Oliver Sheppard to be placed on the walls of the Richmond.
 

[corisande]

The other son appears to be Charles O'Carroll born circa 1890 from 1911 census

[PRC]

On the 1911 Census of Ireland Joseph and France O’Carroll were recorded living at 43 Merrion Square East, South Dock, Dublin.

The couple have been married 24 years and have had 8 children, of which 7 were then still alive. Six of the children were living with them on the night of the census.

Male children in the household

• Charles O’Carroll, aged 21, Medical Student born Dublin City
• Francis O’Carroll, aged 15, born Dublin City

I can’t see a death for Charles on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website.

 

Going back to the 1901 Census of Ireland there are two additional male child:-

• Joseph O’Carroll Junior, aged 13
• Morrogh (-tbc) O’Carroll, born Dublin City.

Again, no obvious match, so possibly the son died after discharge.

 

Checking the National Archive for Officers papers the only potential match for any of those, (other than Francis), is a Lieutenant Charles James O’Carroll, The Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

Reference is  WO 339/30635

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1084537

 

Of course the son could have been other ranks or serving in the Navy or Air Force.

 

Now there is a Medal Index Card for a Lieutenant C.J. O’Carroll, 1st Battalion, Royal Dublin Fusiliers, who landed in France in Sepotember 1917 – but his medals are shown as forfeited. The problem seems to lie in that there is also a Lieutenant Claude St John O’Carroll.

 

So back to the drawing board,

 

Peter

 

Update - there is a picture of Francis on this website - but no reference to any brother

http://www.irishmedals.ie/Numbers-Killed.php

 

 

Edited 8 April , 2019 by PRC

[PRC]

A blog points the way to a possible answer.

https://worldwarzoogardener1939.wordpress.com/tag/c-f-ball/

 

Dublin Zoo RZSI – Frank Brendan O’Carroll

 

Zoo families were affected by the loss of staff but also of the members of staff families on active service. Sons, brothers, grandsons and heirs of zoo and botanic gardens staff were lost in WW1. The wealthy citizens and Dublin Zoo council members living in Merrion Square in Dublin had their own family losses. One such was Frank Brendan O’Carroll, the son of Dublin Zoo RZSI council member Joseph O’Carroll MD FRCPI of 43 Merrion Square, Dublin.

 

Second Lieutenant Frank Brendan O’Carroll, 6th Battalion, Royal Dublin Fusiliers died on 10 August 1915, aged 20 as part of the Gallipoli and Dardanelles campaign. He is remembered on panel 190-196 of the Helles memorial to the missing, Turkey.

 

The circumstances of his death are recorded in the 6th Battalion war diary: http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/battaliions/6-batt/war-diaries/1915-08/1915-08-trans-htm

 

7 August Suvla Bay. Made landing at C Beach on Anafarta Bay at 18.00. Battalion in reserve under Brig General Hill. Took up position at Entrance to Salt Lake. 6th and 7th Dublins attached to 31st Brigade.

8 August Suvla Bay. Battalion on water and ammunition fatigue for the Brigade

9 August Suvla Bay. Battalion attached to 33 Brigade (General Maxwell), Moved from beach about 02.30 to Hill 50. A Coy detached to support the right flank of the Brigade. Battalion ordered to support firing line near Ali Bay Chesme point 105-H-8.

Officers killed Lt Doyle, wounded believed killed 2nd Lt Stanton, 2nd Lt Mc Garry. Wounded and missing Major Jennings. Wounded Capt Luke, Capt Carrol, Lt Martin, 2nd Lt Carter, 2nd Lt Mortimer, 2nd Lt O’Carroll. Missing Lt Clery. Killed wounded and missing Other Ranks 259.

 

The Europeana website has a poignant letter from father Joseph as he worries over four sons including another fighting in Gallipolli. http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/en/contributions/3619

 

O’Carroll’s name on the memorial is pictured on http://www.irishmedals.org/irishmen-at-gallipoli.html

 

The letter on the Europeana site doesn't name names, but does say one of his sons is in America and in a bad way, so a possible explanation as to why he doesn't appear in the records for the British Empire.

 

May be a co-incidence but a 21 year old Irish student Charles James O'Carroll landed at Ellis Island, New York on the 24th April 1911. He was last resident in Dublin. Although it's been crossed through it looks like his nearest relative is his father, a J O'Carroll, of 43 M??? Square, Dublin. His end destination was San Francisco. He arrived on the S S Cedric.

Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JJK1-BX7

 

Still not sure if that's the son who died and not sure how to resolve it - time for another think.....

 

Peter

 

 

 

Edited 8 April , 2019 by PRC

[corisande]

Dr Joseph Francis O'Carroll's military career is from London Gazette

 

1917 Aug 15. R.A.M.C.—Joseph   Francis  O'Carroll, M.D., F.R.C.P.,  I.,  to  be  temp.  Hon.  Lt.-Col.

1917 Sep 29. The undermentioned, temp. Hon. Lt.-Cols .to be temp. Hon. Cols.: —.J. F. O'Carroll, M.D., F.R.C.P., I.

1919 Jun . Awarded CBE in Birthday honours

1919 Oct 31. R.A.M.C. Temp. Col.  Joseph  F.  O'Carroll,  C.B.E.,M.B.,  F.R.C.S.L,  relinquishes  his  commn.,  and  retains the  rank  of  Col.

 

He had CBE and not OBE

 

I can find no evidence that he returned his CBE. Does his letter of "resignation"  exist in a library somewhere ?

[corisande]

And Ancestry Tree - click gives his children

 

Morrogh O'Carroll 1899 - 1903 died by drowning in Westport . Death Cert says "probably accidental, no inquest held"

 

His brother Joseph B E O'Carroll's departure for USA may indicate an involvement, see below

 

[corisande]

Joseph B E O'Carroll 1888 - 1965 went to USA before WW1 and does not appear to have fought in WW1

 

There is an Ancestry Tree - click for Dr Joseph Francis O'Carroll with his family

[corisande]

The last son Charles James O'Carroll was born Dublin on 8 Jun 1888

 

And this is probably his service record and death. The dates correspond with his father seeing him in London

 

1914 Oct 24. Second Reserve  R. Dub. Fus. Temp. 2nd Lt. C. J. O'Carroll, from a Serv. Bn., to be temp. 2nd Lt.   6 Nov.1916,  but with seniority from 24 Oct. 1914.

1917 Jul 1. CJ O'Carroll second reserve RDF promoted temp  Lt

1917 Aug His father sees him in London en route to Gallipoli (see letter in post #7)

1917 Sep Lands in Gallipoli

1919 Mar 6. Dub. Fns. Temp. Lt. C. J ..O'Carroll is dismissed the Service by sentence of a General Court-Martial. 6 Mar. 1919 . MIC shows medals forfeited  . He was in 1st Bat RDF, so their war diary may add something

6/1922 A Charles J O'Carroll died in London aged 32

 

 

Edited 9 April , 2019 by corisande

[corisande]

 

To sum up.

 

Of the Doctor's 4 sons, only Frank who died, and Charles who survived, served in British Army

 

Charles was Court Martialed, and I have not found out why

 

The accepted wisdom on Dr Joseph Francis O'Carroll seems difficult to check

 

He was certainly President of Royal College of Physicians in Ireland

He appears to have joined the British Army in Aug 1917. That is well after the Easter Rising in 1916, so he was not disturbed by the British response to that

He got the CBE in Jun 1919

He may or may not have returned his CBE, I cannot find anything to confirm that. You could equally speculate that he returned it because his "last" son (he was estranged from his eldest son in USA) was court martialled

 

There is certainly a very interesting tale here with the sons, and research into his court martial may reveal more.

Or his service record from post #6 above

Reference is  WO 339/30635

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1084537

 

Edited 9 April , 2019 by corisande

[PRC]

 

Corisande,

 

Thanks for that -  I was going round in circles looking at that letter from his father on the europeana website and getting fixated with the three things that stood out and which now make more sense.

 

1: The letter is dated 18th September 1915. If it was his son Charles James O’Carroll who died, (last encountered in April 1911, landing at New York bound for San Franciso), then who might he have been serving with to have incurred injuries with at that time, if it wasn’t with the forces of the British Empire. The American’s weren’t in the war yet.

 

(However looks like he must have returned to the UK.)

27 minutes ago, corisande said:

The last son Charles James O'Carroll was born Dublin on 8 Jun 1888

 

And this is probably his service record and death

 

1914 Oct 24. Second Reserve  R. Dub. Fus. Temp. 2nd Lt. C. J. O'Carroll, from a Serv. Bn., to be temp. 2nd Lt.   6 Nov.1916,  but with seniority from 24 Oct. 1914.

1917 Jul 1. CJ O'Carroll second reserve RDF promoted temp  Lt

1919 Mar 6. Dub. Fns.Temp. Lt. C. J ..O'Carroll is dismissed the Service by sentence of a General Court-Martial. 6 Mar. 1919

6/1922 A Charles J O'Carroll died in London aged 32

 

2: The letter refers to the son in America “whose lungs & ??? are in a bad way” (Wish I could make out that word). The problem with his lungs could stem from all kinds of problems, but obviously being gassed or spending a long time in the water are two of the most common you might associate with warfare. That raises the issue that if he was injured in Euorpe, why would he have been returned to the states rather than his family in Dublin?

 

(However looks like it is Joseph and he was permanently estranged from his father. His injuries / illness most likely have nothing to do with the war.)

 

47 minutes ago, corisande said:

Joseph B E O'Carroll 1888 - 1965 went to USA before WW1 and does not appear to have fought in WW1

 

 

3. The reference to starting with four fine boys. “Starting what”– well the obvious implication is the Great War. But the 1911 Census shows his marriage had produced 8 children of which 7 were then still alive. The same census gives us details of 6 of them – 4 girls and 2 boys. The 1901 census adds 2 more boys, Joseph & Morrogh. That’s a total of 8 names, so one of those last two must have died between 1901 & 1911.

 

(It was the youngest son who died).

50 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

Morrogh O'Carroll 1899 - 1903 died by drowning in Westport . Death Cert says "probably accidental, no inquest held"

 

His brother Joseph B E O'Carroll's departure for USA may indicate an involvement, see below

 

 

Filling in a few more gaps…

 

Checking the birth register Joseph was born 27th January 1888 in South Dublin and had no middle names.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02528/1936812.pdf

 

A 20 year old Joseph O’Carroll, born Dublin, arrived at St Louis bound for New York on the 18th April 1907. He gave his occupation as ‘Clerk’ and his next of kin as his father, Joseph O’Carroll, of 43, Mission Square, Dublin. The duration of the stay is recorded as permanent.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99DQ-59P9-V?i=3907&cc=2185163

 

There is no obvious match in The Times for a report around the date of either the court martial or death of Charles. I have selected highlights from local regional newspapers for the period of the court-martial that I have copied over the years - gave them a look but can't see anything. Nor is there an obvious reference in the UK probate calendar from this time - although in 1924 there is a Florence Eva O'Carroll, spinster, of Dublin, whose probate was granted to a Joseph O'Carroll, M.D., so certainly would appear to be in the scope of the calendar.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[corisande]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

The letter refers to the son in America “whose lungs & ??? are in a bad way” (Wish I could make out that word)

 

I think it reads

 

"except for the boy in America whose lungs I fear are in a bad way"

[PRC]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

 

I think it reads

 

"except for the boy in America whose lungs I fear are in a bad way"

 

Makes sense - I'd mentally catalogued it as an ampersand ("&") as it seemed distinctly different from the capital "I" that starts the next paragraph but that could just reflect the placing in the sentence and the following character - lower case "f" (fear) in the first instance and lower case "w" (want) in the second.

 

BTW - I can't see a Joseph B E O'Carroll in the American and Canadian records availabe on family search, but there is a Joseph E, a 19 year sailor from Dublin landing at Ontario in 1906. His next of kin is given as his father, Mr O'Carroll of 43 Merrion Square, Dublin - a familiar address. Joseph E. subquently crosses the border, heading for Buffalo, New York State. He intends to permanently move to the United States. The 20 year old Joseph, (no middle initial), who arrived at St Louis in 1907 was also a permanent immigration and he too was heading for Buffalo. There is a Joseph E who turns up on the 1930 & 1940 census in Los Angeles where there is also a death record in 1965 - some 50 years after his fathers' letter..

Seems likely to all be the same individual but where the "E" came from and what it stands for is unclear.

 

Would be good to know if anyone ever gets to the bottom of the court martial.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[corisande]

He was baptised "Joseph Berchmans Ely O'Carroll"  Original record here - click .

 

The "Ely" looks like an afterthought on the baptism register. I cannot see where either Berchmans nor Ely havew come from, and they were not used on later children

 

And more on that Ancestry Tree - click . Which is probably the work of one of his descendants

[Ronan McGreevy]

Gentlemen, so sorry. I'm only catching up on this now. Thank you so much once again for your sterling efforts. They are much appreciated. 

[FROGSMILE]

Fascinating thread everyone.  I hope that something can be discovered about Charles’s court martial.  Being dismissed the service indicates that it was a fairly serious charge.

[corisande]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 I hope that something can be discovered about Charles’s court martial.  Being dismissed the service indicates that it was a fairly serious charge.

 

His Officer file is referenced earlier in the thread, and if and when TNA is available should have the answer

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1084537

 

His medal card - on Ancestry click - refers to him on "suspense list/50"

 

The RDF  History by Col Wylly has a list of officers serving in 1st RDF on armistice day and that included Lt C J O'Carroll

 

He does appear to have had some history that I cannot fathom

R. Dub. Fus.Temp. 2nd Lt. C. J. O'Carroll relinquishes his commission on account of ill-health. 21Oct. 1916.

R. Dub. Fus.The relinquishment of his commission by temp. 2nd Lt. C. J. O'Carroll notified in Gaz. of 20 Oct. 1916 is cancelled

 

Then his court martial is announced

R. Dub. Fus.Temp. Lt. C. J..O'Carroll is dismissed the Service by sentence of a General Court-Martial. 6 Mar. 1919.

 

Edited 7 February , 2021 by corisande

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

His Officer file is referenced earlier in the thread, and if and when TNA is available should have the answer

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1084537

 

His medal card - on Ancestry click - refers to him on "suspense list/50"

 

The RDF  History by Col Wylly has a list of officers serving in 1st RDF on armistice day and that included Lt C J O'Carroll

 

He does appear to have had some history that I cannot fathom

R. Dub. Fus.Temp. 2nd Lt. C. J. O'Carroll relinquishes his commission on account of ill-health. 21Oct. 1916.

R. Dub. Fus.The relinquishment of his commission by temp. 2nd Lt. C. J. O'Carroll notified in Gaz. of 20 Oct. 1916 is cancelled

 

Then his court martial is announced

R. Dub. Fus.Temp. Lt. C. J..O'Carroll is dismissed the Service by sentence of a General Court-Martial. 6 Mar. 1919.

 

Thank you corisande, that’s all the more intriguing.  The suggestion of retirement through ill health is historically often (but of course not always) a get out clause offered to an officer to avoid washing dirty linen in public.  In such circumstances it usually enabled the regiment itself to avoid a scandal that it would find distasteful whilst at the same time allowing the officer concerned to depart more discreetly and so salvage some degree of personal and family honour.  Such times are long gone of course.  A different society has led to a different Army, just as with other institutions.  It would be unfair to guess at what I suspect the situation might have been, so I won’t.  

Edited 7 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

Yes, that is why I think that his Officer File could help. I have read a number where "something" has happened and the family have applied pressure to "help" the situation. These sort of letters are usually kept on file. Certainly his father had clout in Dublin

 

The other thing is the reference to the "suspense list". I think I have only come across this with POWs. Does anyone know anything about other sorts of "suspense list". If he was dismissed by Court Martial would that not have meant that he lost his medals as a result, or was there a further process to vet whether he lost the medals as well as his commission

[corisande]

His father's obit in BMJ suggests that C J died from effects of gas after WW1

 

He did not die in Ireland (at least I cannot get a death in Irish GRO)

 

But there is a 1922 death in London  that could be him. And his MIC shows a London address. A death cert would give a cause of death

 

[PRC]

On 09/04/2019 at 13:42, corisande said:

1919 Mar 6. Dub. Fns. Temp. Lt. C. J ..O'Carroll is dismissed the Service by sentence of a General Court-Martial. 6 Mar. 1919 . MIC shows medals forfeited  . He was in 1st Bat RDF, so their war diary may add something

 

I'm intrigued too, so took the opportunity to download the 1st Battalion War Diary. However curiously the month of March 1919 is completely missing. I've  scrolled back to September 1918 and forward to the end in May 1919 and found no mention of him. There are detailed lists each month of named officers ons and offs the fighting strength so it's not as if his leaving for the UK or elsewhere in France & Flanders wouldn't be mentioned.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

Yes, that is why I think that his Officer File could help. I have read a number where "something" has happened and the family have applied pressure to "help" the situation. These sort of letters are usually kept on file. Certainly his father had clout in Dublin

 

The other thing is the reference to the "suspense list". I think I have only come across this with POWs. Does anyone know anything about other sorts of "suspense list". If he was dismissed by Court Martial would that not have meant that he lost his medals as a result, or was there a further process to vet whether he lost the medals as well as his commission

It was a further process to lose medals I believe, although circumstances have changed over the decades since, so I’m not 100% sure.  Certainly if dismissed ‘with disgrace’ medals usually were forfeited.  There were a number of sub clauses regarding dismissal and you would need to examine the contemporary Manual of Military Law, which is available online.  I’m not sure if King’s Regulations for the Army might also mention the regulations pertaining to forfeiture.  I do know the bar was set very low.

Edited 7 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, corisande said:

His father's obit in BMJ suggests that C J died from effects of gas after WW1

 

He did not die in Ireland (at least I cannot get a death in Irish GRO)

 

But there is a 1922 death in London  that could be him. And his MIC shows a London address. A death cert would give a cause of death

 

There were some terrible incidences of gassing during the German Spring offensive and I recall that some Irish battalions were among those several that suffered specifically.  A great many regiments battalions experienced some degree of panicking among elements of their sub units.  There are some contemporary reports concerning this written immediately afterwards, but I don’t know how to access them. 

Edited 7 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE