Army Ordnance Department

[8055Bell]

Hi All,

I'm researching Hon Captain John Thomas Mills.  He died in Fleetwood 22/12/1914.  He had served in the ranks (RA?) from 1882 and became Hon Lt in 1901 & Hon Capt in 1909.  Does anyone know what the AOD would have been doing near Fleetwood, or would he have been hospitilised locally to his family after serving elsewhere?

I know a lot about family & prior service and I will visit Kew soon, so please don't duplicate my work.  It's really the service in 1914 I'm trying to find at the moment and other info on the AOD in England.

Thanks

Tim

ps Isn't it remarkable that I'm doing this for a chap whose Grandfather was born in 1862.  156+ years ago!

[ss002d6252]

Hon. ranks were usually for quartermasters so was he acting in that capacity ?

Craig

[8055Bell]

Hi Craig,

He was previously a Conductor rank, which appears to be WOI or WOII.  I have also noted a Battalion's WOI RQMS promoted Hon Lt / QM, but never seen Hon Capt before.

I think the Army Ordnance Dept was part of the War Office (or equivalent) as opposed to Army Ordnance Corps - which was  a Corps of the Army.  They employed soldiers and I think the officers were Honorary because they weren't formerly serving in the Army. I may stand corrected.

 

Tim

[Muerrisch]

Conductor as such was among the top three or four WO appointments, and was the second earliest WO appointment, in 1879. The earliest, but not continuous, was schoolmaster. Conductors still claim absolute seniority but this is totally spurious, even if repeated ad nauseam.

[8055Bell]

Thanks. I've seen a former Band Sgt as Conductor and assumed it was a Band WO.  Clearly there was wider meaning then...

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Tim

 

Appointments to the AOD were broadly of two types:

 

1. The directing staff, who were appointed by transfer from other corps for a four-year term, which could be extended for two or three years.

2. The permanent executive establishment, who looked after and issued stores. They were paid on similar lines to quartermasters of other arms, and received promotions and pay rises after each complete five years' service. As with quartermasters, they were given honorary ranks.

 

Ron

Edited 10 April , 2019 by Ron Clifton

[8055Bell]

Thanks Ron,

 

This is very helpful.  Hon Lt Mills was appointed Assistant-Commissary of Ordnance in 1901 and Deputy Commissary of Ordnance with his Hon Capt promotion in 1909.  Is there some way of defining these posts?

 

Prior to his commission he had served 15 years 164 days in the Ranks and 3 years 214 days as a Warrant Officer. I believe was previously served in RA.

[Ron Clifton]

5 hours ago, 8055Bell said:

This is very helpful.  Hon Lt Mills was appointed Assistant-Commissary of Ordnance in 1901 and Deputy Commissary of Ordnance with his Hon Capt promotion in 1909.  Is there some way of defining these posts?

Not that I could see in the Pay Warrant. The top grade was Commissary of Ordnance, but it does not seem to be a defined link between the grade held and the officer's (honorary) rank. I think that it is likely that promotion in the Commissary grades was made according to the numbers needed, but that seniority of service would have been an important factor.

 

King's Regulations simply refer readers back to the Pay Warrant.

 

Ron

[Scalyback]

I may be missing something here.

How can a man in the Royal Artillery obtain the appointment of conductor? 

It is not a RA appointment. Just think you may be barking up the wrong tree there unless it was a transfer to the Ordnance Corps early on(where the appointment sits) to obtain the correct training and times in roles. 

6 hours ago, 8055Bell said:

. I believe was previously served in RA.

 

Inspectors of Machinery being an RA role in the Army Ordnance Department but he does not fit the profile there. 

I would say AOC ranker, obtaining warrant officer status with appointment of conductor. After this honorary commission due to special knowledge. The Corps not being so snobby over technical appointments, as the ex WO will know a lot more than a new subbie(same today) but moved over to the department to carry on being a technical person. 

[8055Bell]

Thanks Ron,

The Army lists show interesting composition of the different Grades / Posts and I also noted the inconsisitency with rank.

 

Thanks Scalyback,

John Mills' son served in Great War RFA aged 15, so stayed at Home until 1919, when he went to the Army of Occupation.  He also served in WWII.  His Grandson advised that his father chose the RFA to follow his Father's footsteps.  I'd assumed John Snr must have joined the RA and then transferred to AOC / AOD.  I will report more when I've seen the service file. Can't wait!

[Scalyback]

Transfers are known but the higher you go the harder to transfer. Be interesting to see the career path. I have the feeling Captain Mills will turn out to be an authority on some specialist ordnance matters. 

 

[MaureenE]

I am familiar with the situation in India, where men were appointed to the "Unattached List", meaning not attached to a particular regiment.  Usually the situation in India was similar to the in Britain, although perhaps in Britain the equivalent List was called something else.

 

In India, even though some men had Honorary Officer status, when it really mattered,  they were treated as Warrant Officers.

 

The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Unattached List

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Unattached_List

 

Cheers

Maureen