Grandfather/brothers in WWI

[kptz]

Hello, 

 

Would anyone be able to help with identification of uniform and possibly branch of service? I have attached some pictures. My grandfather, Francis Joseph Moore (1 May 1897-5 Jun 1976) always used the phrase "I walked in the footsteps of Jesus" when referring to his service. The picture of my grandfather seated was taken at forge Studio in Cherhill, Calne.  

 

I don't have the origin of the other two pictures. The second picture is with 3 men – Francis (seated, left side) and his 2 brothers, John (standing) and James William (seated). The third picture is of James William. I know that James William Moore was in the Liverpool Scottish Regiment and also was awarded 3 medals: British War Medal, Victory Medal and the Mons Star. I don't have any information about the brother John Patterson Moore.  John Patterson Moore was born 1 Jan 1892 and died 21 May 1969. James William Moore was born 21 Jul 1894 in Liverpool and died 23 Jan 1971 in Hawaii.

 

Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Kathleen 

[Dave1418]

Hi

he is a Royal Engineer signaller

1 armband white/blue

2 engineers cap badge but wearing breaches and has riding crop or whip in hand 

im sure someone will identify the tartan of the other images 

[clk]

Hi Kathleen,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

Hopefully some uniform experts will be along shortly, with more informed comments. In the 2nd photo he may be sporting a Royal Engineers cap badge...

 

 

In the 1st photo he may be wearing a white over blue signallers brassard

 

In the 2nd photo he appears to be wearing leather putties, rather than standard cloth ones. As well as wearing breeches rather than trousers, it also looks like there might be a hint of a strap over his boots - so possibly wearing spurs, implying a mounted roll??. Misaligned over his left breast pocket (possibly a blemish) is something that looks like the Imperial Service Tablet/Brooch, but that should be over his right breast pocket.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit: I see Dave's already posted

 

[FROGSMILE]

Agree with all posts above.  I think that the Highland pattern uniform is possibly that of the 10th (Liverpool Scottish) Battalion the King’s Regiment (TF) going by the sporran badge.

 

 

Edited 8 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[kptz]

Thank you all so much for the information! Where would a Royal Engineer Signaler be posted? We can not locate my grandfather’s medals so I don’t have a regiment number. 

 

thanks again for your time and efforts,

Kathleen

[FROGSMILE]

54 minutes ago, kptz said:

Thank you all so much for the information! Where would a Royal Engineer Signaler be posted? We can not locate my grandfather’s medals so I don’t have a regiment number. 

 

thanks again for your time and efforts,

Kathleen

 

The Signal Service of the Corps of Royal Engineers (RE) were specialists and largely employed in providing communications between formation headquarters, usually of Divisions, Corps and Armies with their subordinate units.  They were most frequently set up in large buildings, or sometimes dugouts, behind the front line, although often within the range of shellfire.

Edited 7 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[kptz]

Thank you Frogsmile! Would a signaler have the boots and what appears to be a whip? If so, does that possibly mean he was behind the front line?

 

Thanks for taking the time to help!

Kathleen

[Pat Atkins]

One possibility is he may have belonged to a Divisional Signals Company, and been a member of a cable-laying team. These included a cable wagon and drivers, plus various outriders. Depending on the period of the war and the theatre, these men were often in action (my grandfather was one, and was made prisoner at Le Cateau in 1914).

 

Cheers, Pat

 

Edit: I think Chris is correct, that looks like an Imperial Service tablet but worn on the wrong breast.

Edited 8 April , 2019 by Pat Atkins

[Pat Atkins]

Have tried to check An****y but its crashed my phone. Again. Grrrr. Anyway.

 

Where did your grandfather live? As a Territorial soldier, his (original) unit would I guess have been local. He may of course have transferred into the Sigs Service from his local Territorial RE unit. Either way, it looks like he served somewhere hot! Like Gallipoli, Balkans(?), Malta, Egypt, Palestine, Mesopotamia, India maybe?

 

Not much help, but I've sometimes found tiny clues can really help. Or turn into red herrings - good luck, anyway.

 

Pat

[kptz]

My grandfather was born on Great Homer Street in Everton, Liverpool in 1897. He married in 1923 and lived in Kirkdale, then Bootle until he died in 1976. (I am in the States) The only reference to his service I have is the quote "I walked in the footsteps of Jesus" which recited when he got upset. 

 

Thanks,

Kathleen

[George Rayner]

I can find this Francis Joseph on Ancestry...

Name: Francis Joseph Moore

Rank: Pte

Birth Date:1896

Residence Place: Galway

Military Service Region: Ireland, Ireland

Discharge Date:7 Jun 1919

Service Number:6115

Regiment: Connaught Rangers

Title: Pension Record Cards

Description: Pension Record Ledger

 

Is that him?

 

..and John Patterson

Name: John Patterson Moore

Gender: Male

Rank: LCpl

Military Service Region: North West, England

Service Number:22486

Regiment: Kings L'pool

Title: Pension Record Cards

Description: Pension Record Ledger

 

and the last you know?

Name: James William Moore

Gender: Male

Birth Date: abt 1894

Birth Place: Walton, Lancaster, England

Enlistment Age:19

Document Year:1913

Regimental Number:2737

Regiment Name: The King's (Liverpool) Regiment, Scottish Battalion

Number of Images:50

Form Title: Territorial Force Attestation

 

May be repeating info you already have...

 

George

Edited 8 April , 2019 by George Rayner

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, kptz said:

Thank you Frogsmile! Would a signaler have the boots and what appears to be a whip? If so, does that possibly mean he was behind the front line?

 

Thanks for taking the time to help!

Kathleen

 

I concur with Pat’s suggestion that he was likely employed as a ‘Linesman’ (i.e. cable laying). 

Edited 8 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

Could the footsteps of Jesus saying mean he was in Jerusalem? He is wearing tropical kit in the first photo. 

[Pete_C]

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Agree with all posts above.  I think that the Highland pattern uniform is possibly that of the 10th (Liverpool Scottish) Battalion the King’s Regiment (TF) going by the sporran badge.

 

 

 

Further confirmation of King's TF in that he wears Territorial Forces Patern 1908 Web equipment, a simplified version of the standard P08 issue. The cartridge carriers consist of the three lower tier pockets only rather than the regular five pocket, two over three configuration. 

 

Pete

[clk]

Hi Kathleen,

 

As Francis is wearing the Imperial Service Tablet, he may have been entitled to the Territorial Force War Medal. If (a big if) that were to be the case, he may have been this man...

 

 

 

 

Images sourced from Ancestry.co.uk

 

Whilst those records don't show a middle name or initial, Findmypast have a medical record for 436098 Moore, which transcribes as:

 

First name(s): F J

Last name: Moore

Service number: 436098

Rank: Sapper

Unit: Pl Of C Sig Co . The 'L of C Sig Co' bit might be 'Lines of Communication Signal Company', but I don't know about the 'P'...'Palestine'??

 

Ailment:  PNYD = pyrexia (cause) not yet diagnosed?

 

Transferred by: Hospital Ship "Assaye" departing from Haifa on 16th October 1918; arriving in Alexandria on 18/19th October 1918 - which would fit in with service "I walked in the footsteps of Jesus"

 

792/436098 Moore has two service numbers because the Territorial Force were renumbered in 1917. 

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Superb deductions and research, Michelle, Pete and Chris 

[Michelle Young]

If the photo was taken in Cherhill, is it possible to find out which RE units were in Wiltshire? I can only think of RAF camps Compton Bassett and Yatesbury which are nearby to Cherhill  but I think they were WW2. 

[FROGSMILE]

I am wondering if John Paterson Moore might have been in the Liverpool Irish Battalion of the King’s Liverpool Regiment, Kathleen, rather like one of his brothers was in the Liverpool Scottish.  I say this because of the way his cap badge looks (albeit it’s distorted by some kind of photographic process) in the picture of the trio.

 

The King’s Liverpool Regiment had three types of front-line Battalion; regulars (professionals), war-raised (volunteers organised in so-called ‘service battalions’), and Territorial Force (the equivalent of US National Guards).  The regulars and most (but not all) of the service battalions wore the regular cap badge comprising a Hanoverian prancing horse with title scroll under, but the Territorial Force battalions wore a variety of badges depending upon their historical origins.  The Liverpool Scottish and Liverpool Irish wore badges typical of their Nationalistic titles, and I enclose images of examples of these three main types.

Edited 8 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Jrmh]

There is reference to "L" ( L of C ) Signal Company, "M" ( L of C ) Signal Company ( E.E.F) and Palestine ( L of C ) Signal Company 01 Jun 1919 to 31 Jan 1920 at Serial 34 of this:

 

https://www.re-museum.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Library-War-Diaries-WW1.pdf

 

Not sure if that's any use as the dates don't fit.

 

Also, https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557871 Lines of Communication Troops: Railway Telegraphs and 'P' Signal Company Royal Engineers (1917 Apr - 1918 May)

Edited 8 April , 2019 by Jrmh

[kptz]

 I truly appreciate all your time and efforts.  You have all been incredibly helpful. George: my grandfather was born and raised in England, and proud of it so I don't think he would have served in an Irish regiment. I don't have information about John P Moore; however, there is a cousin I found who is in contact with his daughter who is almost 90 –– not sure if she knows anything, I will ask. Frogsmile, Michelle, Pete and Chris, I will check out all the information you have given as best I can and ask the same cousin. I don't think grandad or the uncles spoke much about their time in service.

 

This is very exciting to have your insights.

 

Thank you again,

Kathleen 

[FROGSMILE]

Kathleen, just to be clear, I am not suggesting that your grandfather was in an Irish Regiment.  We know from what’s been shown above that he was a Royal Engineer.  You will see from my post that I am suggesting that John Paterson might have been with the Liverpool Irish.  It was not an Irish Regiment per se, most of the men were from Liverpool but might have had Irish forebears.  Similarly men of the Liverpool Scottish might have had familial connection with Scotland.  However, such connections were not essential and men came from all over Liverpool and surrounding areas and once conscription was introduced they could come from anywhere.

[kptz]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Kathleen, just to be clear, I am not suggesting that your grandfather was in an Irish Regiment.  We know from what’s been shown above that he was a Royal Engineer.  You will see from my post that I am suggesting that John Paterson might have been with the Liverpool Irish.  It was not an Irish Regiment per se, most of the men were from Liverpool but might have had Irish forebears.  Similarly men of the Liverpool Scottish might have had familial connection with Scotland.  However, such connections were not essential and men came from all over Liverpool and surrounding areas and once conscription was introduced they could come from anywhere.

 

• Please know I didn't mean to offend you.  My grandfather did have Irish connections – his mother was born in Dublin. I am trying to learn what I can with little family input. I appreciate all you have done to help.

Kathleen

55 minutes ago, museumtom said:

Was his father a priest?

No. My great-grandfather, James Moore, was a baker. They lived at n184 Great Homer Street.

[museumtom]

Ah right so.

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, kptz said:

 

• Please know I didn't mean to offend you.  My grandfather did have Irish connections – his mother was born in Dublin. I am trying to learn what I can with little family input. I appreciate all you have done to help.

Kathleen

 

I’m not at all offended Kathleen, but I sensed that you were becoming a little confused.  It is not easy for someone unfamiliar to understand the seemingly arcane organisation of the British Army, mobilised in a war of National survival, between 1914 and 1918. I hope that perhaps by taking notes in association with each of the three brothers things might begin to make sense and fall into place.

[kptz]

32 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I’m not at all offended Kathleen, but I sensed that you were becoming a little confused.  It is not easy for someone unfamiliar to understand the seemingly arcane organisation of the British Army, mobilised in a war of National survival, between 1914 and 1918. I hope that perhaps by taking notes in association with each of the three brothers things might begin to make sense and fall into place.

 

Yes, it is a little confusing but I am beginning to get a better understanding with all the help I am receiving. Interesting that each of the three brothers chose different paths to serve.