Please help identify which unit is he from ?

[smclaren]

Hello Everyone

 

Hope this message finds you all well ?

 

I am doing some research on family WW1 photo's and this chap has made an appearance in one of them.

 

The photo i am researching is of New Zealand soldiers, so this chap is obviously a "ring-in". He is mentioned simply as "Jock".

 

Any ideas what unit he would be from ... and any detailed descriptions of the headwear would be terrific. 

 

By the way, the photo has been colorized recently, so we are keen to know if the colours are accurate ?

 

Also, is that medal on his chest .... its small and we are keen if it is and what the colour would be.

 

 

Thanks and best regards.

 

Steve

Edited 6 April , 2019 by smclaren
More info

[JMB1943]

I cannot identify the unit, but the red/white chequer on the (Glengarry ?) cap is indicative of a Scottish regiment; in this case a NZ regiment with affiliations to a Scottish regiment.

Scotsmen are colloquially known as "jocks", so perhaps that is the origin of his name.

As for the colours, the khaki, the red-brick wall, the brass buttons and the skin-tones all look accurate to my eyes.

 

Regards,

JMB

[Pat Atkins]

Glengarry & badge look like Royal Scots Fusilers (or something affiliated?). Dicing looks right, though I'm no expert.

 

Edit: a very quick Google throws up a RSF affiliation with 1st Royal New Zealand Infantry Regt - no idea if that postdates WW1, though, but might be worth a look

 

Edit again: 1st RNZ Rgt formed 1947 and claims descent from all NZ territorial regiments as well as old NZ Regt (Wikipedia claims), so not much help there!

Edited 6 April , 2019 by Pat Atkins

[Waddell]

I would agree, Royal Scots Fusiliers.

 

Scott

[FROGSMILE]

Royal Scots Fusiliers.  The colours of the glengarry are as shown in the enclosed images.

 

If the photo was taken in 1918 (his smile hints at a survivors photo too) then the ribbon is probably that of the 1914 or 1914-15 star.

 

 

 

Edited 6 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[smclaren]

Thanks for the confirmation, everyone.

 

Anyone like to take a punt on the ribbon or medal on his left chest ? 

 

Steve

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, smclaren said:

Thanks for the confirmation, everyone.

 

Anyone like to take a punt on the ribbon or medal on his left chest ? 

 

Steve

 

I already have if you read my reply.

[smclaren]

Thanks Frogsmile ... I appreciate the info.

 

The photo is pre June 1917 (the Battle of Messines) 

[Steven Broomfield]

The picture haing been colourised recently and having a whopping great imprint slapped across it, I'd suggest a close up of the ribbon in the original black and white (i.e. not colourised) and without the imprint, might be helpful.

 

Edited 6 April , 2019 by Steven Broomfield

[CorporalPunishment]

11 hours ago, smclaren said:

Thanks Frogsmile ... I appreciate the info.

 

The photo is pre June 1917 (the Battle of Messines) 

If the photo is pre-June 1917 then the medal ribbon may not be for the 1914 Star. The 1914 Star was introduced in April 1917 so it would depend on how soon the ribbons were issued. It could be the ribbon of the India GSM (1909) if those colours are to be believed.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

I agree with Pete that if the colourised ribbon is a true representation then it’s very likely the 1909 India GSM. He has the look of a pre-war regular and that would fit. I think there is a typo and he meant that the 1914 star ribbon was issued in 1918, rather than 1917.

Edited 6 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[smclaren]

Here you go, Guys ... the full photo in BW as requested by Steven B.

 

[Steven Broomfield]

IGSM looks good.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Steven Broomfield said:

IGSM looks good.

 

I agree, good spot Steven.

[CorporalPunishment]

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I agree with Pete that if the colourised ribbon is a true representation then it’s very likely the 1909 India GSM. He has the look of a pre-war regular and that would fit. I think there is a typo and he meant that the 1914 star ribbon was issued in 1918, rather than 1917.

Frogsmile, I know the 1914 Star was established in April 1917 and authorised by Special Army Order in November 1917 so I assumed the medal ribbons were issued before the end of 1917. Can you say when they were first issued please?.    Pete.

[TullochArd]

Cracker of a photo.  Agreed on Regiment and Ribbon.  RSF (Glengarry and Shoulder titles).  IGSM Medal ribbon.  Notice the "Old Sweat" style of pleated puttees and lace up breeches.  The notebook by his knee suggests to me this fellow is a Colour Sergeant Instructor of some sort.

Edited 7 April , 2019 by TullochArd
Punctuation

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Frogsmile, I know the 1914 Star was established in April 1917 and authorised by Special Army Order in November 1917 so I assumed the medal ribbons were issued before the end of 1917. Can you say when they were first issued please?.    Pete.

 

There’s a thread about it somewhere Pete, all I can remember offhand is that the ribbons first appear on uniforms in Summer 1918 if I recall correctly.

6 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Cracker of a photo.  Agreed on Regiment and Ribbon.  RSF (Glengarry and Shoulder titles).  IGSM Medal ribbon.  Notice the "Old Sweat" style of pleated puttees and lace up breeches.  The notebook by his knee suggests to me this fellow is a Colour Sergeant Instructor of some sort.

 

I don’t think he is a Colour Sergeant in the photo, he seems to wear standard g/m grenades above 3-stripes, which suggests he is a sergeant bombing instructor.

Edited 7 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

There’s a thread about it somewhere Pete, all I can remember offhand is that the ribbons first appear on uniforms in Summer 1918 if I recall correctly.

 

I don’t think he is a Colour Sergeant in the photo, he seems to wear standard gm grenades above 3-stripes, which suggests he is a sergeant bombing instructor.

Thanks Frogsmile.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

IGSM looks good.

 

Significant to note that the 1st Battalion RSF were stationed in India from 1896 (arriving from England) until 1910 (disembarking in South Africa).

The Battalion qualified for the 1895 India Medal.  Both regular Battalions were present for the 1897-98 Punjab campaign:  http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_regiment/rsf/royal_scots_fusiliers.htm

 

Edited 7 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

There’s a thread about it somewhere Pete, all I can remember offhand is that the ribbons first appear on uniforms in Summer 1918 if I recall correctly.

 

I don’t think he is a Colour Sergeant in the photo, he seems to wear standard g/m grenades above 3-stripes, which suggests he is a sergeant bombing instructor.

 

FROGSMILE is correct.  The badges above the Chevrons are Grenades.