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seaJane

Same man? (surgeon, RN)

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seaJane
Posted (edited)

I think I'm suffering from the wish being father to the thought, but - are these the same man? The date is right (September '14 photo), and the profession fits; the engraving has the name I want, but the photo is one of the few in the album with the name not given...

 

1906.jpg

1914.jpg

Edited by seaJane
Re-size photos

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

I think they could be, but several years apart.

If the first shot was late teens, and the second mid - late  twenties, then maybe.

The second shot does show a slight divergent squint, his right eye is looking at the camera, his left diverges.

In the first shot, his left eye is looking straight at the camera, his right eye is a little dark but is that divergent too?

His left ear looks very similar.

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seaJane
Posted (edited)

Several years apart would be right; the oval engraving is 1906, the year he was 25, the photograph September 1914, when he was 33. 

 

(have reduced the size now).

Edited by seaJane

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Heid the Ba

I'm really not sure, sorry.

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Uncle George

I think not. We learned on WiT some years ago that ears are the giveaway, as distinctive as fingerprints. The ears of these chaps, especially the right ears, are dissimilar.

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rolt968

I'm guessing that the second photo is part of a group photo. If so, where was he standing in the group? I'm trying to work out if the camera was point slightly upwards towards him in the second photo.

 

I take the point about the ears. But on the other hand there are similarities. The end of the nose is turned slightly to his left. I thought at first that this was not true of the second photo, but it is just viewed from a slightly different level. There are similarities about the ears, but they seem to stick out more in the second photo, which might be caused by a camera at a slightly different level.

 

RM

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seaJane
47 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

'm guessing that the second photo is part of a group photo. If so, where was he standing in the group? I'm trying to work out if the camera was point slightly upwards towards him in the second photo.

He was in the back and highest row of four, the front row seated on the ground if I recall correctly, next row back seated on chairs. If it's any help he is on the right-hand side of the group as the camera faced them.

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rolt968
1 minute ago, seaJane said:

He was in the back and highest row of four, the front row seated on the ground if I recall correctly, next row back seated on chairs. If it's any help he is on the right-hand side of the group as the camera faced them.

That's what I thought. His head is turned a little to his left. This makes his left ear seem a bit bigger.

I am inclined to think it is the same man. The nose is quite distinctive.

RM

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
1 minute ago, rolt968 said:

His head is turned a little to his left. This makes his left ear seem a bit bigger.

I think his head is turned a little to his right, exposing more of his left ear.

I think it looks as though he has broken his nose at some point also.

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rolt968
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I think his head is turned a little to his right, exposing more of his left ear.

I think it looks as though he has broken his nose at some point also.

Apologies! My left - his right. Mind on two things at once!

Alas, I'm not as good at multi-tasking as I used to be.

RM

Edited by rolt968

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seaJane
3 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I think it looks as though he has broken his nose at some point also.

That's interesting, because (if he's the surgeon I hope) he's from Sunderland, and an army man I'm trying to connect to him played rugby for Sunderland RFC, which would seem quite an easy way to break one's nose... must try to find the names of the rest of the team!

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Uncle George

Same man ?

 

 

2596F895-3FF8-43D8-BF76-61BAE3A96137.jpeg

C124AC81-1DDC-4F8B-9769-3742A17482B9.jpeg

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seaJane

No, but I won't say I hadn't noticed!

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Spooky!

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rolt968
52 minutes ago, seaJane said:

That's interesting, because (if he's the surgeon I hope) he's from Sunderland, and an army man I'm trying to connect to him played rugby for Sunderland RFC, which would seem quite an easy way to break one's nose... must try to find the names of the rest of the team!

According to Doctor in the House, the ability to play Rugby was one of the best qualifications for joining a London teaching hospital!

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seaJane

:D

 

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ajsmith

I used facial recognition software (Microsoft Face API) and it believes that they are not the same man. 

 

 

Face API View.png

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seaJane
Posted (edited)

Oh, well ... :)

Alfred James Gilbertson, MB.

right-hand page: https://archive.org/details/b24850305/page/154 (Tyneside RNVR as of 1909)

no.673: https://archive.org/details/navylistjan1915grea/page/664 (REWA, Navy List January 1915)

 

I also have his obituary from the BMJ, which notes that after taking his degree at Durham, apart from the war he spent all his working life in and around Sunderland. Had been wondering if he passed through Haslar before going to sea. One of his surgeon shipmates aboard REWA certainly did, and is in the back row of the same photograph.

Edited by seaJane

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ajsmith
31 minutes ago, Uncle George said:

Same man ?

As a comparison I tried it with the Dan Snow photograph and Face API returned a confidence of  0.02269 that it wasn't the same man

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
1 hour ago, seaJane said:

Oh, well ...

Indeed.

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rolt968
1 hour ago, ajsmith said:

I used facial recognition software (Microsoft Face API) and it believes that they are not the same man. 

 

 

Face API View.png

Is that 34.433% confidence that it is two different people?

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ajsmith
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

Is that 34.433% confidence that it is two different people?

The software returns a value between 0 and 1 where 0 is definitely different people and 1 is definitely the same person. Anything over 0.5 therefore indicates likely to be the same person. In percentage terms you might say there a  65.567% chance they are different people. This is my interpretation of how these work and if someone knows different I would be pleased to hear from them.

Edited by ajsmith

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rolt968
18 minutes ago, ajsmith said:

The software returns a value between 0 and 1 where 0 is definitely different people and 1 is definitely the same person. Anything over 0.5 therefore indicates likely to be the same person. In percentage terms you might say there a  65.567% chance they are different people. This is my interpretation of how these work and if someone knows different I would be pleased to hear from them.

Thank you.

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