Jim Strawbridge Posted 5 April , 2019 Share Posted 5 April , 2019 My research has drawn a total blank on this one. On the York Minster panels under Voluntary Aid Detachment is this woman. Search as I might I cannot find her on Ancestry, BMD or the British Red Cross record cards. I have looked at Syme and Symes, too. Any ideas ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 5 April , 2019 Share Posted 5 April , 2019 Hi! Have you looked in an addressbook of York if a family of that name (or she as a single) lived in York? GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 5 April , 2019 Share Posted 5 April , 2019 Perhaps Sim, Simms etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 5 April , 2019 Admin Share Posted 5 April , 2019 Jim A possible red herring as there is no guarantee it is your lady but there exists in the Manchester archives a 1901 family group photo in which there is an Elsie Sym. Might be a clue... https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/39d7cac3-19d2-44fb-89fe-37c4d6ab4cea Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 5 April , 2019 Admin Share Posted 5 April , 2019 (edited) Jim EDIT: Forget this - the family arrived in London from Sydney in June 1908 and left Liverpool for Sydney in October 1908!! Father having changed profession from Secretary to Miner! Another long shot: A 15 year old Elsie Sym arrived from Australia with her family in 1908. She could have volunteered as a VAD via the Australian Red Cross Society as 120 were known to have done so but only 91 names known. https://sites.google.com/site/archoevidence/home/ww1australianwomen#TOC-Voluntary-Aid-Detachment-VAD- Downside is she survived the war as she got married in 1920 in Australia and lived long after.... I presume we are looking for a Casualty? Regards David Edited 5 April , 2019 by DavidOwen Red Herring - sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 5 April , 2019 Share Posted 5 April , 2019 Given her age as 15 in 1908 that = born circa 1893. There's an Elsie Margaret Sym born 27/2/1893, Queensland. Married 1920 (Mr Woodrow) and on electoral rolls Gympie 1915, 1916 & 1919. Same father as on passenger list; Thomas H then listed as Sharebroker. Elsie Margaret Woodrow buried Gympie, Died Apr 1970, born 1893. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 5 April , 2019 Admin Share Posted 5 April , 2019 2 minutes ago, TEW said: Given her age as 15 in 1908 that = born circa 1893. There's an Elsie Margaret Sym born 27/2/1893, Queensland. Married 1920 (Mr Woodrow) and on electoral rolls Gympie 1915, 1916 & 1919. Same father as on passenger list; Thomas H then listed as Sharebroker. Elsie Margaret Woodrow buried Gympie, Died Apr 1970, born 1893. TEW TEW - my apologies for having lead you astray there - looks like the family only stayed a few months as per edited post (whilst you were busy doing your research methinks) so it seems unlikely she would have been Jim's VAD.... Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 5 April , 2019 Share Posted 5 April , 2019 Possibly, but she's not on 1917 Electoral Rolls for Gympie, perhaps she came via troop ship rather than commercial or commercial but not into UK? TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmania Posted 5 April , 2019 Share Posted 5 April , 2019 Might she be Elizabeth Birnie Sym, a member of Edinburgh 12 VAD. Haven't checked if she passed away though. Aled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmania Posted 5 April , 2019 Share Posted 5 April , 2019 Might be her. She died in 1920 aged 26. When were the York panels unveiled, cannot find the date? Aled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 5 April , 2019 Admin Share Posted 5 April , 2019 Good find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 5 April , 2019 Share Posted 5 April , 2019 (edited) Hi All Elizabeth Birnie Sym died on 17th January, 1920. Her address was 4 Greenhill Place, Edinburgh. Father was James Pitcairn Sym...looking Born 3rd July, 1892, Edinburgh This is her mother, Elizabeth Leslie Watt and her father James Pitcairn Sym She had a sister Mary Leslie Sym VAD 1914.??http://www.scotlandswar.co.uk/pdf_St_George's_School.pdf Barry Edited 5 April , 2019 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 5 April , 2019 Share Posted 5 April , 2019 7 hours ago, Carmania said: York panels unveiled, cannot find the date? 1925 - https://yorkminster.org/discover/stories/story/the-sisters-window-for-the-sisters/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Strawbridge Posted 6 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2019 (edited) I think that we nearly have her but not quite. At first sight I thought that Carmania (post #9) might have found her particularly in view of the death date. But the York Minster panels show as Elsie Sym and not Elizabeth Birnie Sym. I had another look at DavidOwen post #4 which relates to a photograph held at the Manchester branch of the National Archives. The details show :- Watt family group c. 1901. Back row: James Sym, Reverend Gordon Watt, Dr Leslie Watt, Willie Sym, Reverend Thomas David Watt. Middle row: Elsie Sym, Birnie Watt, Dorothy Watt, Catherine Erskine Watt, Freddy Watt, Peggy Watt, Elizabeth Hector Watt nee Birnie Elizabeth Leslie Sym nee Watt, John B. L. B. Watt, Betty Watt, Alice Watt nee Chivas, James Sym. Front row: Mary Sym, twins Thomas and William Watt, Jane A. M. F. Watt. What is noticeable is the name of Elizabeth Hector Watt nee Birnie. Birnie is the middle name of Elizabeth Sym so almost certainly the same family. Also a Birnie Watt. And who do we see as the first name in the middle row - Elsie Sym. If we can find that the date of death of this woman falls in with wartime or immediately afterwards then we may have found her. Edited 6 April , 2019 by Jim Strawbridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 6 April , 2019 Share Posted 6 April , 2019 (edited) 22 hours ago, The Inspector said: Hi All Elizabeth Birnie Sym died on 17th January, 1920. Her address was 4 Greenhill Place, Edinburgh. Father was James Pitcairn Sym...looking Born 3rd July, 1892, Edinburgh This is her mother, Elizabeth Leslie Watt and her father James Pitcairn Sym She had a sister Mary Leslie Sym VAD 1914.??http://www.scotlandswar.co.uk/pdf_St_George's_School.pdf Barry Think you are probably correct. I found a newspaper article from July 1913 when she and her sister Mary were bridesmaids at their brother James wedding - she ( Elizabeth Birnie Sym) was known as Elsie! Also her other brother William John Sym was actually a minister and he later served in WW1 with the Royal Army Chaplains Department. The other brother James Pitcairn Sym appears to have been commissioned with the Perthshire volunteers. Finding the obituary of the Father James Pitcairn Sym in 1931 he had been a writer to the signet, and also an elder for nearly 50 years in the Tollbooth church in Edinburgh (there may be records or a plaque to those from the congregation who served). They were a well to do family with close links to the church of Scotland - so it fits in with the girls doing their patriotic duty during the war. Elsie's death certificate on Scotlands People states she died of Tuberculosis. Edited 6 April , 2019 by david murdoch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 6 April , 2019 Share Posted 6 April , 2019 (edited) Hi All Most definitely the same family...death cert of Elizabeth Leslie Sym..... https://www.ancestry.co.uk/mediaui-viewer/tree/27494406/person/12216204047/media/eb7d642b-0cc5-4891-abac-45b530a31041 Regards Barry Edited 6 April , 2019 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Strawbridge Posted 7 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 7 April , 2019 david murdoch (post #15). - "she ( Elizabeth Birnie Sym) was known as Elsie" ! I would be interested to know how you know this as this could bring Elizabeth back into the frame as the person named on the York Minster panels. But there was an Elsie as well as an Elizabeth according to the photograph information mentioned above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 7 April , 2019 Share Posted 7 April , 2019 1 hour ago, Jim Strawbridge said: david murdoch (post #15). - "she ( Elizabeth Birnie Sym) was known as Elsie" ! I would be interested to know how you know this as this could bring Elizabeth back into the frame as the person named on the York Minster panels. But there was an Elsie as well as an Elizabeth according to the photograph information mentioned above. Jim. From newspaper article relating to their brother James Pitcairn Sym's marriage in 1913. The two sisters were bridesmaids and noted as Mary and Elsie. I'll try and crop the article from the newspaper download. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 8 April , 2019 Share Posted 8 April , 2019 (edited) Hi All Working on the family trees from the 1901 photo list, process of elimination.....Can we get a copy of the photo.?? EDIT .... GOT ONE Rev. Thomas David Watt, husband of Catherine Erskine Watt, Glengairn Manse, Ballater 1925 Electoral register.their son John Black Leslie Bernie Watt (b.1897), Private 3130 Gordon Highlanders, .De Ruvigny's Roll.....d.25.9.15., ........1901 census also with sons William B F Watt and Thomas D Watt, 8yrs twins, and daughter. Jane A M F Watt (Jane Amelia Mary Ferguson Watt d.12.9.1958 Worthing ,Sussex), 6 yrs and Elizabeth H B Watt daughter b.1891. 10 yrs.(Elizabeth Hector Berni C e Watt b.21.3.1891. mother Catherine Erskine Watt neeFerguson) Elsie Sym, if it is Elizaberth Birnie Sym would be 21 yrs old on the wedding photo. See below Working on it....Elsie Sym is middle row left........the only other female of the correct age is Elizabeth Leslie Sym standing middle row right so ...over to you......? Regards Barry Edited 8 April , 2019 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Strawbridge Posted 8 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 8 April , 2019 22 hours ago, david murdoch said: Jim. From newspaper article relating to their brother James Pitcairn Sym's marriage in 1913. The two sisters were bridesmaids and noted as Mary and Elsie. I'll try and crop the article from the newspaper download. Thank you. I am content that the bridesmaids were Mary and Elsie. Where I come unstuck is your comment that - "she ( Elizabeth Birnie Sym) was known as Elsie". In the photograph (1901) mentioned above there is a Mary, an Elsie and an Elizabeth. I am hoping that you are going to say that the article itself makes the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Strawbridge Posted 8 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 8 April , 2019 (edited) The Inspector. Thank you. I was still typing my comment when you came through. Did the text with the photograph confirm that - "she ( Elizabeth Birnie Sym) was known as Elsie". ? The Elizabeth Birnie Sym died in 1920 aged 26. That would make her born in 1894 and therefore aged seven when the photograph was taken in 1901. Elsie is shown in the photograph as the first name in the middle row so we can assume that she is the young lady at the far left middle row next to the lad with the brimmed hat - and, to me, she seems to be aged somewhere between seven and ten. Edited 8 April , 2019 by Jim Strawbridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 8 April , 2019 Share Posted 8 April , 2019 (edited) Hi Jim, No, working on it.. Mary Sym seated front row left(married name Fenwick) Regards Barry Edited 8 April , 2019 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 8 April , 2019 Share Posted 8 April , 2019 (edited) Hi All Mary Leslie Sym was born 15.11.1894, Edinburgh and according to trees on Ancestry her sister Elizabeth Birnie Sym was born 3.7.1892, Edinburgh. Leslie was the middle name of their mother (Elizabeth Leslie Watt) and Birnie was the surname of their grandmother ( Elizabeth Hector Birnie.)..... The only difference on the family tree photo and the list given is Alice Watt nee Chivas is named as Mrs. Leslie Watt. Regards Barry CORRECTION TO NAME MIDDLE ROW 3rd FROM RIGHT IS BETTY WATT. FYI William Black Ferguson Watt was a 2nd Lt in Gordon Highlanders. b.29.3.1893 died 16.8.1958 Ontario , Canada. His twin Thomas David served in British Red Cross d.10.9.1959 Davyhulme, Manchester. Photo below John Black Leslie Bernie Watt left and William Black Ferguson Watt right. Edited 8 April , 2019 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Strawbridge Posted 10 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2019 We seem to have strayed from the original question. Who is Elsie Sym ? Was she a woman in her own right or a nickname for Elizabeth Birnie Sim ? My own inclination is towards a woman in her own right but cannot evidence it one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 10 April , 2019 Share Posted 10 April , 2019 Hi All As David posted at No.16 "Elsie's death cert. says she died of TB ".......what does the rest of the cert. show? All checks out with the public trees on Ancestry, much more info. than posted on the GWF. All the evidence points to Elsie being Elizabeth Birnie Sym, the other Elizabeths in the photo are her mother and grandmother. ....over to David for clarification. Regards Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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