Which barracks in Norwich?

[David26]

Does anyone happen to know in which barracks in/near Norwich 60th Brigade RFA trained in?  They were there from September 1914 until 11th (Northern) Division assembled at Witley Camp, near Godalming in April 1915. 

 

Many thanks,

 

David.

[seaJane]

Might be worth giving the information service a call at the Forum, Norwich's excellent library:

https://www.norfolk.gov.uk/libraries-local-history-and-archives/libraries/library-services/information-service

[David26]

That's super. Thank you seaJane. 

 

David.

[seaJane]

After that, I hope they can help!

[PRC]

The only Barracks in Norfolk that I'm aware of are two in Norwich, the Cavalry Barracks at the foot of the hill overlooking the city, Britannia Barracks, the Regimental Depot of the Norfolk Barracks at the top and one at Great Yarmouth. There are then various Drill Halls and Keeps.

 

It's unlikely that they were stationed at any of them as the barracks in particular were occupied by other units. It's more likely they were stationed on one of the many large estates in Norfolk. For many towns even out as far as the coast to the North and East and down to Thetford in the South West, Norwich was the nearest "postal town", so a unit said to be in Norwich could actually be 25-30 miles away. I suspect the County Library won't be able to tell you much more as they don't have any specifically Military documents. I know from my own work on the local newspapers that they don't mention specific unit details - taking a quick look at pictures and articles in editions from early 1915 I can see references to locally stationed units being "Essex Territorials at Costessey Hall" or from a "London Brigade near Aylsham". I would expect the Military Censor would come down hard on any more specific reference to a unit and it's whereabouts, plus there would be a great deal of self-censorship going on in the press.

 

If the 60th Brigade RFA had a regional flavour, (like those Essex Territorials), I can take a look to see if there is anything in the Norwich based newspapers.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[David26]

Thanks Peter,

 

that's helpful.  The brigade sadly didn't have a regional flavour, so I'll try the Norfolk library as seaJane suggested, just in case, but may also try scouring the service records of some 60th Bde men to see if they mention anything.

 

David. 

[rolt968]

This is interesting.

An RFA man I have been researching drowned in the River Wensum (Open Verdict) in September 1914. He had enlisted very early and had done initial training in Leeds before moving to Norwich. His body was found at Pull's Ferry which is just downstream from the Cavalry Barracks.

RM

 

Edited 27 March , 2019 by rolt968

[David26]

Thanks RM.

 

Do you happen to know which unit he trained in while he was in Leeds?  I ask because that is where 58th Bde trained (in Chapeltown Barracks) and, being another of the RFA brigades within 11th (Northern) Division, there was a certain amount of postings between 58th, 59th and 60th Bdes. 

 

David.    

[PRC]

1 hour ago, rolt968 said:

 

An RFA man I have been researching drowned in the River Wensum (Open Verdict) in September 1914. He had enlisted very early and had done initial training in Leeds before moving to Norwich. His body was found at Pull's Ferry which is just downstream from the Cavalry Barracks.

 

 

The edition of the Norwich Mercury dated Wednesday, 23rd September 1914 has the following report on the inquest.

 

NORWICH RIVER MYSTERY.

 

VERDICT OF “FOUND DROWNED.”  

 

A verdict of “Found drowned” was returned at an inquest held by the Deputy Norwich Coroner (Mr. W.N. Ladell), at St. Peter Parmentergate Schoolroom on Saturday, on the body of David Smart, a gunner in the Royal Field Artillery, whose body was recovered from the River Wensum on Thursday morning.

 

Charles Reioch, a gunner in the R.F.A., stationed at the Cavalry Barracks, said deceased was a native of Forfarshire, and joined the battery at Leeds. He was a steady man, and not addicted to drink. On Thursday, the 10th inst., witness lent him his bandolier to go on guard with, and at 6.30 on the following evening he saw him on guard wearing the bandolier. He never saw him again until he was called to identify the body.

 

In answer to a juryman, witness said deceased was of a cheerful disposition, and had never threatened to commit suicide.

 

George McAllister, a private in the R.F.A., said about 10 p.m. on the 11th inst., he was with the deceased in a public-house near the Market Place. Deceased left the bar sober, although he had had one or two drinks.

 

P.-c. Percy Capon, of the River Police, said at 12.30 pm. on the 17th inst. he saw the deceased floating in the river near Pull’s Ferry. He recovered the body, and conveyed it to the Mortuary. A search in deceased’s clothing revealed 8s. 1d. in money, and a few other small articles. There was nothing to show how deceased came into the river.

 

P.C. Geo. Jennings said the police had made enquiries, and had received a telegram from the Montrose police stating that the parents of the deceased lived at 8, Hill Street, Montrose, Forfarshire.

 

It was repeated in the following Saturday edition - the Norwich Mercury was a twice weekly title.

 

I could find a possible match for Charles Reioch in the Medal Index Cards at the National Archive, (Gunner 84068, later Gunner 228708 Royal Garrison Artillery) but not George McAllister.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 27 March , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[rolt968]

40 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

The edition of the Norwich Mercury dated Wednesday, 23rd September 1914 has the following report on the inquest.

 

NORWICH RIVER MYSTERY.

 

VERDICT OF “FOUND DROWNED.”  

 

A verdict of “Found drowned” was returned at an inquest held by the Deputy Norwich Coroner (Mr. W.N. Ladell), at St. Peter Parmentergate Schoolroom on Saturday, on the body of David Smart, a gunner in the Royal Field Artillery, whose body was recovered from the River Wensum on Thursday morning.

 

Charles Reioch, a gunner in the R.F.A., stationed at the Cavalry Barracks, said deceased was a native of Forfarshire, and joined the battery at Leeds. He was a steady man, and not addicted to drink. On Thursday, the 10th inst., witness lent him his bandolier to go on guard with, and at 6.30 on the following evening he saw him on guard wearing the bandolier. He never saw him again until he was called to identify the body.

 

In answer to a juryman, witness said deceased was of a cheerful disposition, and had never threatened to commit suicide.

 

George McAllister, a private in the R.F.A., said about 10 p.m. on the 11th inst., he was with the deceased in a public-house near the Market Place. Deceased left the bar sober, although he had had one or two drinks.

 

P.-c. Percy Capon, of the River Police, said at 12.30 pm. on the 17th inst. he saw the deceased floating in the river near Pull’s Ferry. He recovered the body, and conveyed it to the Mortuary. A search in deceased’s clothing revealed 8s. 1d. in money, and a few other small articles. There was nothing to show how deceased came into the river.

 

P.C. Geo. Jennings said the police had made enquiries, and had received a telegram from the Montrose police stating that the parents of the deceased lived at 8, Hill Street, Montrose, Forfarshire.

 

It was repeated in the following Saturday edition - the Norwich Mercury was a twice weekly title.

 

I could find a possible match for Charles Reioch in the Medal Index Cards at the National Archive, (Gunner 84068, later Gunner 228708 Royal Garrison Artillery) but not George McAllister.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Thanks Peter,

That's my man. 

 

I have seen a number of newspaper reports (including that one) about David Smart's death.  I didn't have my notes when I posted earlier. I see in my write up that I had him at the Cavalry Barracks, but had not (yet) put in the reference. The Registers of Soldiers' Effects says that David S Smart was in 190 Battery RFA.

 

RM

 

Edit: Further reading of my notes and consulting this page again:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-royal-artillery-in-the-first-world-war/batteries-and-brigades-of-the-royal-field-artillery/lviii-lix-lx-and-lxi-howitzer-brigades-of-the-royal-field-artillery-11th-divisional-artillery/

tells me that 190 Battery was one of the original components of LX Brigade.

(Note to sell: Do all the references at the same time as the write up!)

Edited 27 March , 2019 by rolt968

[PRC]

Ok - must check my sources as I had a Reserve Brigade of Cavalry in occupation at that time.

 

If it's any help the Norfolk County Picture Archive has a picture of the Cavalry Barrack, (long since gone)

https://norfolk.spydus.co.uk/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/FULL/PICNOR/BIBENQ/62409239/2206970,1?FMT=IMG&IMGNUM=1

 

Cheers,

Peter

[David26]

Thanks very much both - that's fantastic.  So it looks as if the Cavalry Barracks is most likely where 60th Bde were.  I will continue digging to see if I can get any confirmation (I looked in several service records last night but the closest to what I was looking for just said "Norwich") and many thanks also for the information on Gnrs Smart  Reioch and McAllister. 

 

David.

[battiscombe]

Relevant to this discussion and an interest in 11 Div RA, I would note that - if you have not seen these already - the war diary of the 'unallotted' 45th Brigade [WO95/1694-2_1], contains several pages of notes (numbers of NCOs & men passing through, names of officers.. etc]  on the formation of 58 (at Leeds), 59 (at Weedon) and 60 (at Norwich) and 61 (at Weedon) Brigades and the dispatch of  reservists, recruits and new officers to these units from Leeds serving as 'a training centre for the artillery of the 6 new divisions' ... before 45th Bde moved south  to join 8 Division at the end of September. Throughout these refer to 'Norwich' as destination, but no name of barracks.

[David26]

Thank you battiscombe.  I wasn't aware of that - I'll certainly take a look because that sounds very interesting.

 

David.   

[David26]

Having now downloaded this War Diary, there are several names I recognise - and one or two I don't, so that's all very interesting. 

 

Thanks again for the tip, battiscombe,

 

David.

[battiscombe]

Glad that is of interest. I think those pages provide a rare record of some of the initial processes of forming New Army units at start of war..

[barkalotloudly]

a friend of mine who i have not seen for some time is researching a soldier of the 12th Lancers and has a copy of a phototgrapg of the barracks as well as a copy of an old map which shows the lay out of the barracks in some detail when i was at school i can rememebr an old teacher talking about the horses being ridden out of the barracks in the early mornings the site now has houses on it but still retains a potion of the outer wall on the roundabout at the bottom of Ketts Hill  

[David26]

Thanks barkalotloudly, that's a nice detail.

[PRC]

Apologies for not following this up sooner, but I've only just made it into the county archive.  The newspaper I quoted from was the Norwich Mercury, a bi-weekly that was published on Wednesday and Saturday. I wanted to check out whether the daily newspapers that were its rival had maybe covered it in more detail. As a daily they had more need to fill column inches. The micro-film covering the August and September 1914 editions of the Eastern Daily Press was missing, but I could find the equivalent period for it's sister title the Eastern Evening News.

 

It doesn't add much but there are a few little details.

 

From the edition of the Eastern Evening News dated Friday 18th September 1914.

 

SOLDIER’S BODY FOUND IN THE RIVER.

 

TRAGEDY AT NORWICH.

 

Yesterday the body of a Scotch soldier was taken out of the River Wensum, near Pull’s Ferry. It was removed to the mortuary. The drowned man was David Smart, of the Royal Field Artillery, now stationed at the Cavalry Barracks. He is believed to be a native of Montrose. He was last seen alive by a chum on Friday last. Police-constable Capon, of the River Police, saw the body floating on the surface of the river. It was clothed in a khaki uniform. An inquest will be held to-morrow.

 

And the edition for Saturday 19th September 1914.

 

SOLDIER DROWNED AT NORWICH

 

An inquest was held today by the Deputy-Coroner for the city (Mr. W.N. Ladell) on the body of Gunner David Smart, a Scotch soldier, who was found drowned in the Wensum on Thursday.

 

Charles Reioch, a gunner in the Royal Field Artillery station at the Cavalry Barracks, said deceased was about twenty years of age. He was a gunner in the Royal Field Artillery. He was a native of Forfarshire, and joined the battery at Leeds. Deceased was a steady man, and not addicted to drink. On Thursday the 10th inst., witness lent him his bandolier to go on guard. At 6.30 p.m. on the following day he saw deceased on guard at the barracks wearing the bandolier. Witness did not see him again until Thursday last, when he identified the body at the Mortuary.

 

George McAllister, a private in the R.F.A., said he had known the deceased since he joined the battery at Leeds. About 10 p.m. on the 11th inst, witness was with him in a public-house near the Market Place. Deceased left the bar quite sober. He was cheerful at the time. They had been playing at darts together.

 

Evidence of the discovery of the body was given by Police-constable Capon, of the river police. He saw it floating in the river near Pull’s Ferry at 12.30 p.m. on the 17th inst, and recovered it. Witness removed it to the Mortuary. A sum of 8s 1 1/2d was found in the pockets.

 

Police-constable George Jennings said it had been ascertained that the relatives of the deceased lived at 8, Hill Street, Montrose.

 

A verdict of “Found drowned” was returned.

 

While I was looking at the Friday article I noticed that just below on the page was a round-up of that days cases in the Police Court which has some other information in connection with the 60th Brigade. It seems the new recruits were having to more than just share bandoliers because of lack of equipment.

 

TO-DAY’S NORWICH POLICE COURT.

 

(Before Messrs. George Jewson, (chairman) and E.G. Buxton).

 

A PRACTICAL JOKE.

 

George Arnold Crokers, a driver in the 60th Brigade, Royal Field artillery, was charged with stealing a pair of trousers, valued at 6d, the property of Henry Johns, of the R.F.A., at Norwich on Tuesday.

 

Prosecutor, who lives at Leeds, said he was also in the Royal Field Artillery. He was sleeping on Monday with others at the Carrow Club House. Prisoner was near by. The following morning prosecutor missed his trousers, which had been laid under his pillow. Information was given to a military sergeant, and prisoner was found at drill wearing the trousers. He had thrown his own away.

 

Prisoner said the trousers were being kicked like a football along the floor. He was given them, and, as they were better than his own, he wore them.

 

Sergeant Pierce, of the R.F.A., said he found prosecutor in bed, and asking him why he was not on early parade, was told that he had lost his trousers. Witness made inquiries, and found prisoner with the trousers. He handed him over to the civil power. When charged, prisoner said some one had given him the trousers, and that he had thrown his own away.

 

In reply to the Bench, prisoner said: - “ I am innocent of stealing the trousers, sir, but I am guilty of putting them on.” (Laughter).

 

The Bench said the prisoner did not take the trousers with felonious intent. There had been something in the nature of a practical joke.

 

Prisoner – That is what I think myself, sir. It was a practical joke.

 

The Chairman – We will not detain you any longer, and you are discharged.

 

Surprised they were able to get away with giving unit and location - may be the Military Censor was still too busy laughing!.

 

Hope that's of interest,

Peter

 

 

Edited 16 April , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[David26]

Peter, 

 

That's so kind and really interesting. Crokers sounds like a bit of a jester though I imagine Johns may have used other terms for him. 

 

And the story about the stolen trousers further reinforces the suggestion that the brigade were stationed at the Cavalry Barracks which would make good sense given the need for stabling several hundred horses. It also mirrors the situation of at least one of the other artillery brigades in the same division who were in old cavalry barracks in Leeds.

 

Thanks so much again,

 

David. 

[seaJane]

For interest (I hope), this is Pull's Ferry where the body was found. One of my favourite spots in Norwich:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulls_Ferry,_Norwich

[PRC]

Looking at Pulls Ferry across the river and standing on Riverside Road. The barracks is about a quarter of a mile upstream, (i.e.  towards the right on this picture).

 

Now I know why its called Pulls Ferry by Moominpappa06, on Flickr

 

Most of what was upstream  on the Pulls Ferry \ City side was then either flooded water meadow or industrial -  boat sheds  \ water pumping station for the brewery on the far side and quayside \ warehouses - until the river bent back on itself forming the loop in which the city originally grew.  If someone was looking to cross the river after 10.p.m on a Friday night - which presumably was at or even after curfew then they had limited options. The chain ferry itself was most likely closed. Assuming he went into the water upstream of Pulls Ferry, then the only boat house on that side of the river belonged to the toll master on Bishopgate Bridge - 

 

Boat House

 

River Reflections 1 by Moominpappa06, on Flickr

 

Bishopgate Bridge - approximately half-way between Pulls Ferry and the Cavalry Barracks, it would either have been locked or subject to a police presence.

 

Bishopgate Bridge by Moominpappa06, on Flickr

 

After that it's a long stretch of river until you hit the bridges on the north side of the city - again all with a police presence judging from drunk and disorderly cases in the local police court.

 

There is another potential snagging point where the river bends round in front of the Cavalry Barracks. On the city side there is an old medieval fortification that served as a boom tower. By the outbreak of the war the boom itself was either seriously decrepid or removed according to the accounts I've seen but there were still supporting piles on the river edge.

 

Leaning Tower of Cow by Moominpappa06, on Flickr

 

As the body was found at about 12.30 a.m and the current is relatively strong, it would seem likely his body was freed from wherever it was snagged quite shortly before it was spotted.

 

And now you know far more about Norwich than you ever wanted to :-)

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

 

Edited 18 April , 2019 by PRC
Wrong image inbedding code used

[David26]

Peter, seaJane, 

 

To my great shame I have never visited Norwich but the photos and history you've so kindly provided make me think I've been missing out on a lovely spot and I must clearly rectify this.  

 

What a shame that Gunner David Smart should lose his life in such surroundings.  

 

Thank you both for all the tremendous information. 

 

David. 

[barkalotloudly]

Pulls Ferry the site of the landing of the stone used to build the cathedral 

[PRC]

2 hours ago, barkalotloudly said:

Pulls Ferry the site of the landing of the stone used to build the cathedral 

Not strictly true. A private waterway was dug up to the site for the Cathedral and Monastery - (the latter was dissolved by Henry VIII but there are still some ruins plus of course the Cathedral Cloister that originally linked the two remains). During the Medieval ages the canal was infilled and now forms the walkway from the Cathedral down to Pulls Ferry. The original entrance to the canal was marked by a watergate that has evolved over time into Pulls Ferry as we now see it.

 

Norwich Cathedral - Autumn 2006 (1) by Moominpappa06, on Flickr

 

Tourist Norwich - Cathedral Cloister by Moominpappa06, on Flickr

 

Cheers,

Peter