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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Flares


Joolz

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I'm about to get a 1916 dated W&S flare pistol, and I was hoping you folks could point me in the right direction for examples of the flares that would have been used in it, so I know what to look for in inerts, or to make up replicas. Specifically things like external markings, construction, headstamps etc.

 

I've found a few already using the search function on this site, but not a whole lot, and it keeps on crashing on me. If this subject has already been extensively covered, I haven't found it (yet), but would welcome a pointer to the relevant topic.

 

Also, can anyone point me to a description of the propellant/combustible material, as I'm even considering deactivating live ones and, like asbestos pads in Brodie helmets, I want to know what I'm getting into before fiddling with them (yeah, I know, shooting them would be easier, but that's tricky to organise).

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They were made of cardboard, so not many survive. The bases were brass and are not unlike shotgun cartridges. Relic 1 inch ones are not too hard to come by, a bit of brasso and rubbing brings them up pretty well. I added a suitable cardboard tube from a spent firework to make a 'good enough' example.

 

As for deactivating live ones.. the forum rules (and sanity?) would prohibit anyone from offering advice on this. I have no idea on the constituent parts but the likely presence of degraded phosphorous and magnesium would seem to make it an enterprise for the tired of life.

Edited by ServiceRumDiluted
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A couple of cartridges from my collection

 

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small002.JPG

Edited by alastaircox
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SRD, I'm aware of the forum rules, which is why I never asked for advice on their deactivation. However, more factual information on their contents may be useful. As you say, caution must be exercised, but access to live ones, to someone with the right permissions, appears to be a lot easier and cheaper than finding inert ones (something which is pretty much true of everything to do with guns). Knowing what to look for is the purpose of this post.

 

Alastair, those brass ones are just what I'm after. More images from the GWF community out there would be very much appreciated. I note the lack of dates on the headstamps, which makes things a little more complicated, and really brings to the fore the value of photos like these for identification purposes. If only everything had a date on it, this collecting lark would be so much easier....

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Here's a couple of mine for comparison,

the one on the left has been engraved with R.N.Misurata, an Italian ship torpedoed off the south coast of Ireland....15 dated.

second one is plain, with small circular crimp marks about an inch from the top...probably an indication of refilling?...Royal laboratories but undated MK 3.

Hope this helps,

Dave.

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

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Great examples. The different primer pockets are of interest. Also the strikethroughs on the RL one (wonder what that was about). The engraving work on the left one is superb, I'm envious....Thanks.

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10 minutes ago, Joolz said:

Great examples. The different primer pockets are of interest. Also the strikethroughs on the RL one (wonder what that was about). The engraving work on the left one is superb, I'm envious....Thanks.

I have always presumed the strike throughs were a result of the cartridge been returned and refilled, would make sense given the brass shortages and I know other ordnance was refilled a number of times.

 

A couple of nice examples on here, use "flare" or "verey" in the search box.

http://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/viewphoto.php?shoph=10990&phqu=3

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The examples shown by Alistair Cox look like German 27mm Hebel flare cartridges, especially the one on the right with the DWuM headstamp. The ones shown by Dave 66 are not flare cases but 1" aiming tube cases, hence the different primers as some were electric to match the primers used in the full calibre system.  These were inner sleeves used for gunnery practice in large Naval guns.  Much more here 

 

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/1-inch-aiming-rifle-naval-artillery-subcalibre-projectile/938/7

 

Some more useful images here of cardboard cases, and the brass hebel case

 

https://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=11099

 

As I mentioned, all the British flare cases I have seen, 1 and 2 inch, admitedly in relic condition, have a brass base and a case of cardboard.  Apologies if I was a little terse re deactivation, I had an image of someone taking a stanley knife to a 100yr old round!

Edited by ServiceRumDiluted
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7 hours ago, ServiceRumDiluted said:

The examples shown by Alistair Cox look like German 27mm Hebel flare cartridges, especially the one on the right with the DWuM headstamp. The ones shown by Dave 66 are not flare cases but 1" aiming tube cases, hence the different primers as some were electric to match the primers used in the full calibre system.  These were inner sleeves used for gunnery practice in large Naval guns.  Much more here 

 

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/1-inch-aiming-rifle-naval-artillery-subcalibre-projectile/938/7

 

Some more useful images here of cardboard cases, and the brass hebel case

 

https://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=11099

 

As I mentioned, all the British flare cases I have seen, 1 and 2 inch, admitedly in relic condition, have a brass base and a case of cardboard.  Apologies if I was a little terse re deactivation, I had an image of someone taking a stanley knife to a 100yr old round!

Great information so thank you, I had Seen both types (cardboard and brass) being described as flare/verey cartridges,...every day's a school day👍.

Trouble is now I need a cardboard cased cartridge to sit alongside the 1915 flare gun...easier said than done😢.

 

 

Dave.

Edited by Dave66
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Thanks SRD, it's a pity, I so much prefer the all brass ones (nice and shiny) than the cardboard ones....

 

Dave, it looks like you and I will both be hunting the same beast.....

 

My local Section 5 RFD claims to have boxes full of these (live, of course), I need to see what vintage they are, then maybe look into the feasibility of doing something safely and legally with them (I'm an S5 'servant' myself, in the quaint language of the Firearms Act).

 

SRD - Over the years, I've deactivated a fair few rounds, mainly .303 - the other week I was sorting out a hundred-odd 1945 dated .303 (cordite is a funny-looking thing when you're so used to modern reloading powders, bit like wholemeal spaghetti!). Flares are a completely different kettle of fish, though, and I've no wish to barbecue myself......

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  • 1 month later...

Saved from deactivation, thankfully.....hate to see them (or any gun) butchered:

 

1916 dated W&S 1" Flare pistol, looks like it has hardly been used (next to no wear on the metalwork, flawless bore etc., although it does have a couple of dings in the woodwork and brasswork). Also, practically every part (including both grips) is numbered to the gun.

 

Now the hunt for the elusive (inert) flares begins....

 

Also on the list is the holster - I've seen plenty of WWII dated ones, what does the WW1 version look like....?

W&S Flare Pistol.jpg

Edited by Joolz
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Sits nicely with it's two brothers in arms, a 1918 MkVI and a 1913 Mk1 S/L. All I need now is a MkV and a MkIV and I'll be happy.....no, wait a minute, that can't be right, I can't just stop there.....

Webleys.jpg

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Please also remember that many flares were in the form of rifle Grenades. 

 

These had parachutes and were longer lasting than flare pistol flares. 

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On 27/03/2019 at 20:21, Joolz said:

...

 

SRD - Over the years, I've deactivated a fair few rounds, mainly .303 - the other week I was sorting out a hundred-odd 1945 dated .303 (cordite is a funny-looking thing when you're so used to modern reloading powders, bit like wholemeal spaghetti!). Flares are a completely different kettle of fish, though, and I've no wish to barbecue myself......

 

When I inertified some 303s, even using a seating die to crack the case mouth seal, I found I had to bounce the inertia puller hard enough to drive some of the cordite sticks through the pasteboard wad. I wondered if the primer would stand that every time if I did hundreds - or did you use a collet puller? :o

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I wasn't doing that particular batch at home, so I was just using an inertia puller, took two or three good hard raps on concrete. Wad/card was very thin and presented no real hindrance. I've never had a primer go off doing this, and I've done hundreds, of various ages (still, I guess there's always a first time). Mind you, when I fired off the primers, a great many hardly made a pop (of course, I had ear defenders on), and I wouldn't have known they had gone off if I hadn't seen a puff of smoke when I opened the breech!

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