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Remembered Today:

Robert or Richard Doherty


Dirty Harry

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hello,

 

i need some help! I have two records for what may or may not be separate members of the Inniskilling Fusiliers. 15470 Richard Doherty,  His medal card lists him as achieving the rank of Lance Corporal.  I cant find any others records for him as i have no access to anything other than FWR.  I have found a pow record on ICRC for the same serial number but for a Robert Dougherty listed as missing in action and subsequently captured at Hemel on 22-03-1918.  

 

Now to make matters even more confusing I have found records for 15471 Robert Doherty, listed as a Corporal and Sergeant.  He was listed as MIA 17-05-1918.  This Roberts medal card states his correct surname is Dougherty.  He entry into theatre matches the Star record and he survived the war and was put to Class "Z" status 11-03-1919.

 

Could any one look up a service record to see if this is just one person or two?  and if it is two people is the information correct?

 

Really frustrated...

 

Paul

30850_A000455-00922 ww1 medal rolls index cards 1914 to 1920 Robert Doherty 15471.jpg

30850_A000455-00923 ww1 medal rolls index cards 1914 to 1920 richard doherty 15470.jpg

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They appear next to each other in the medal roll. Both 10 Battalion Innis Fus, So different men.

15470 has a WFA Pension Ledger Card. Born 1882, Lived Londonderry. GSW Left Arm + Rheumatism. Richard Doherty. 

15471 also has a card but no pension. Also Londonderry but different address. Robert Dougherty. Year of birth not stated.

Both discharged 14/3/19. 

The address given for the PoW on ICRC is 26, Glasgow Terrace. Londonderry. This is the address for 15471 on the WFA Card, The dob on the POW record is 28/12/94,

So despite it saying 15470 it is the record for 15471. As stated above 15470 was born 1882. 

Edited by Mark1959
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Sgt. Richard Doherty appears as entry no. 525 on Page 22 of the Londonderry (East) Absent Voters List of 1918.

Address 7 Clarence Place, 15470 Sgt. 2nd Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/Absent-Voters-List-Londonderry-City-Vol.pdf

 

Robert Dougherty appears as no.3882 on Page 23, in the North Londonderry constituency.

26 Glasgow Street, but no rank, unit or number.

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2 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

They appear next to each other in the medal roll. Both 10 Battalion Innis Fus, So different men.

15470 has a WFA Pension Ledger Card. Born 1882, Lived Londonderry. GSW Left Arm + Rheumatism. Richard Doherty. 

15471 also has a card but no pension. Also Londonderry but different address. Robert Dougherty. Year of birth not stated.

Both discharged 14/3/19. 

The address given for the PoW on ICRC is 26, Glasgow Terrace. Londonderry. This is the address for 15471 on the WFA Card, The dob on the POW record is 28/12/94,

So despite it saying 15470 it is the record for 15471. As stated above 15470 was born 1882. 

 

 

Thanks Mark ! 

 

Throws up another few questions...

 

The ICRC PA32065 record for Robert 15471 states he was with the 1st Bn Rif.  So is this an error or had he transferred from the 10th to the 1st late on in the war? 

As there service numbers are so close, is it likely these are two brothers? Both joining up on the same day, both starting the service with the 10th

 

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Try the 1901 and 1911 Irish censuses which are online and free

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Have found Richard's entry in the Star records at the end. 15470 Lance Corporal R Doherty entered France 06-10-1915, Class "Z"  14-03-1919.  This matches is medal roll.

 

Is there any occupation given in the pension ledgers?

Edited by Dirty Harry
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1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Sgt. Richard Doherty appears as entry no. 525 on Page 22 of the Londonderry (East) Absent Voters List of 1918.

Address 7 Clarence Place, 15470 Sgt. 2nd Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/Absent-Voters-List-Londonderry-City-Vol.pdf

 

Robert Dougherty appears as no.3882 on Page 23, in the North Londonderry constituency.

26 Glasgow Street, but no rank, unit or number.

 

Thanks Dia!  I had forgotten about the absent voters listings.

Robert is listed under Dougherty, but his records show up for Doherty.  So maybe the thought they are related isnt right...

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24 minutes ago, Dirty Harry said:

So maybe the thought they are related isnt right...

That's possible.

There seem to be families of both names in close proximity.

As corisande says, check the censuses.

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  • 4 months later...

Hi Paul,

Some years ago I did the rolls of the 10th Inniskilling Fusiliers for Gardiner Mitchel's book 'Three Cheers for the Derry's'.

I recall there was a problem with these two men's cards in particular but the Doherty name in newspaper cuttings.

As it says on the card you posted for Robert Doherty [Dougherty] there is the note in Blue which says [see Dougherty]. There is a second card I found with corrected details.

Dai posted the AVL link for Londonderry City but appeared to put incorrect details for the Richard Doherty stating he was a Sgt. I first thought Dai has got crossed wires with Robert who was a Sgt, Richard only being a Corporal.

Dai gave the page number for Richard on the AVL as 22, it is actually page 18. However I am glad he did as it pointed out a mistake I have made in the Rolls and worth a look at another man's card.

On page 22 of the AVL there is a second Robert Dougherty in the 10th Skins but I have him listed as Robert Doherty in my records, his number is 15463. As I was looking for the original two from the query I had come across a man called Robert Dougherty who served in the Inniskillings from Londonderry in the Presbyterian Rolls.

 

In the Great James Street Londonderry Presbyterian Rolls an Edward & Robert Dougherty are listed, both as Inniskillings. Robert as a corporal and as being a POW. The rank mistake is not unusual.

I believe this is Robert, 15471, and his father Edward [not sure what unit].

In the 1st Derry Presbyterian roll is the second Robert 15463 and his brother Joseph 15469 of Foyle Road [ I need to check this out as in my old notes I have the Joseph Dougherty from a different address, but I think again there is an extra man, another Joseph].

But I have this Robert as Doherty and his brother as Dougherty. The 1911 Irish Census shows them as Dougherty as it does for Robert 15471 & his father at 26 Glasgow Terrace, not Glasgow Street. The Ulster Covenant has the original signatures on and Robert 15471 signs as Dougherty just for confirmation.

 

Now, Richard Doherty 15470, on the 1911 census looks to be listed as Dougherty but signs the Covenant as Doherty with an address of Kennedy Street Londonderry.

He is Church of Ireland so I don't think their rolls are on line but a plaque is up in each church.

 

So going back to Dai putting the AVL link for Richard Doherty I can see why he put him as a Sgt as this is what the AVL says.....but it is wrong, they have taken Robert Dougherty's information but put it against the wrong name & address. You can see on the AVL someone has corrected the number in faint red pen from 15470 to 15471, cocking it up by not changing the rank and additional 2nd Btn note.

Someone has gone over the AVL at some point correcting things so there are lots of red pen alterations. I'm sure all AVL's  are the same.

 

Just for background the 10th Inniskillings formed in a number of recruitment places, Londonderry, Coleraine etc and were assembled at Finner Camp Donegal.

It is here they were given their service numbers and they did it a little unusually in alphabetical order [or very close as someone struggled with Dougherty/Doherty]  but what seems odd is the numbers may not have been issued until early 1915, maybe they renumbered at some stage but some men who joined the 10th late 1914 are not included in the alphabetical sequence but are tagged on with random numbers. Men who joined in September 1914 seem to have got a number between15264 [starting Adair] to 16124 [finishing Young]. This identifies them as original 10th volunteers, perhaps that's why the later ones had separate numbers.

Some of the men were poached into the Royal Engineers for the Ulster Division in February 1915 when the extra field company was raised. Non of the men I have found do this has a 10th Inniskilling number issued. My grandfather was one of them and his attestation papers show he only enlisted in the Royal Engineers in February 1915, no mention of previous unit......... except his papers were signed by Lt Robert Shaw of the 10th Inniskillings, which I read as him releasing the men to the Engineers.

 

One for Corisande.

There is another Dougherty mistake on the 10th Inniskilling rolls I did due to the Index cards. 15464 is listed as William Doherty. I have for a long time thought he may well be William Dougherty, of Florence Street Londonderry. He would have been 15 when he enlisted.

He was killed in 1922 as A/B Special Sgt at Clones Railway Station....'the Clones Massacre'

'Police casulties' list him as being a veteran of the 10th Inniskillings and he is the only William I have.

 

All of the above men, including young William were members of Derry City Ulster Volunteer Force in 1914.

 

Rob

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5 hours ago, rob elliott said:

One for Corisande.

 

Rob

 

Thanks, noted

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Thanks indeed.

The Londonderry/Derry AVLs are interesting in that they consist of the original handwritten leger entries and the final printed versions.

I'm glad you have been able to follow the trail and correct any erroneous information I may have inadvertently supplied.

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7 hours ago, rob elliott said:

Dai gave the page number for Richard on the AVL as 22, it is actually page 18.

 

Ah, there's a 4 page discrepancy between the Pages listed on the left hand side  of the PDF Viewer, which correspond with page numbers subsequently added to the leger document in pencil, and the numbers of the pages of the PDF document on the browse panel at the top of the viewer. This is partly due to the cover pages being included in the total page count. So  "Page 1" of the AVL is  5 of 93 in the PDF and  "Page 18" is 22 of 93.

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Dai,

 

You have done me a favour pointing out the AVL was on line.

About 15 years ago I went into Public Records NI and asked for the Londonderry City AVL, as was usual then I had a puzzled look and the question 'what is it'. When explained the lad disappeared and came out with the ledger, that has now been scanned on line. I asked any chance of a copy. The guys were great, printed it out on A3 sheets for me. Then I found the Londonderry County & they did the same again.

The City one was the handwritten version and the County a printed set [finished] version, however there are still lots of mistakes but it is a great tool for confirming the basics.

I have used it many times when a family have said to me 'I think my grand-dad was in the war'.

But with the 10th Inniskillings having the 15...number sequence you could fill in gaps in the rolls very easy even when there was no battalion number.

Now its much easier as you can cross check on the medal rolls.

 

Corisande,

 

Just another thought, one of the 10th Inniskilling officers was an auxiliary. He was wounded at Dillons Cross Cork. Can't recall his name off the top of my head, Moon???

 

Rob

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Just tried to post a message but it disappeared so this may pop up again.

 

While just going over the printed version of the Londonderry AVL I have come across another Robert Dougherty, this time with the RE's with an address of 8 Florence Street which is the same as the young William Dougherty I mentioned above, who is listed as MGC. By 1918 many 10th Inniskilling MG men had transferred to the MG Battalions so that is not unusual. I think this Robert Dougherty may be one of the other 10th Inniskilling men though.

 

I was looking for my grandmothers brother, Thomas McConnell 15812 as he had a discrepancy with his number, being referred to as 15813 on the AVL written version, corrected, although it still says he was Inniskillings but we understand he went to the Engineers after being wounded.

I could never find a medal card for him but found him on the Inniskilling rolls.

 

edit..just checked Thomas McConnell listed incorrectly as 15813 on printed version too.

 

Rob

 

Edited by rob elliott
correction to service number
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1 hour ago, rob elliott said:

Just another thought, one of the 10th Inniskilling officers was an auxiliary. He was wounded at Dillons Cross Cork. Can't recall his name off the top of my head, Moon???

 

Moon was wounded at Dillons Cross, but I didn't think he was in Inniskilllings - Click for Moon's CV

 

McMonagle was also wounded at Dillons Cross, he was born in Londondery but was in R Irish Regt - click for CV of Mc Monagle

 

I have a clickable list of those wounded at Dillons Cross on this page - Click for wounded list on Dillons Cross Ambush page. A quick run through did not gave any from Inniskillings, but I may have missed something

 

Let me know if you find an Inniskilling

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Corisande,

 

I was thinking on after I posted it may not be the Moon I was thinking of, he became a B specials Officer in North County Londonderry and was in the colour party when the 10th Inniskillings laid up their standards in Omagh in 1921.

 

Regarding Inniskillings in the Auxiliaries,

I have an R.M.Boyle who I believe was a Captain possibly Major in the 10th & is on auxiliary photos. Apparently his medal was stamped R.W.Boyle.

 

Do you know anything of two brothers named Chittick who came from Londonderry, one of whom may have been at Dillons Cross.

'Police Casualties' mention a young Cadet being wounded who was from Londonderry, having served in the Irish Fusiliers.

 

Rob

 

Edited by rob elliott
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Corisande,

 

Just looked at your excellent website, you have Boyle with his photo and medal card on list of men who served in the USC later, that's where I will have found him, with the Specials. I think he was with the colour party too at Omagh.

 

My little cogs are going round now. The young guy at Dillons Cross is McMonagle.

I know why I have him in my mind, he was one of the founders of Derry City Battalion of the Ulster Volunteer force even though he was only 16.

His UVF number is 32, he had high family connections in the City.

One of his middle names is Babington, this is from the family of well known Judges, who I believe are still serving.

Edited by rob elliott
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20 minutes ago, rob elliott said:

Do you know anything of two brothers named Chittick who came from Londonderry, one of whom may have been at Dillons Cross.

'Police Casualties' mention a young Cadet being wounded who was from Londonderry, having served in the Irish Fusiliers.

 

The man from Londonderry is McMonagle, see my post #15 above

 

I took a look at RIC regisiter, and no Chittick (well only one ever joined RIC , and that includes the Black and Tans, and he was born in 1817 )

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Thanks for looking,

 

I have just checked, its not Chittick its Chinnick, rather unusual name but probably same result. I have one of them as a 2nd Lt in the 10th Inniskillings.

There was a Special constable Chittick killed in 1921.

 

Slightly off tangent but relevant to some 10th Inniskilling veterans, were Auxiliaries serving in Londonderry City & Donegal 1920/21.

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No, no Chinnick  ever joined RIC

 

There were no ADRIC based in Derry or Donegal. There were only 2 companies of ADRIC in Ulster - one in Cavan and one in Monaghan. That did not stop them being sent there. For example 2 ADRIC were killed in Belfast, but had been sent to Belfast on escort duty

 

List of places ADRIC were based - click

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