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Haywired

Medal Roll Index Cards

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Haywired

Hello again to All,

 

Simple question, but one which seems to be very difficult to pin down - when did the War Office initiate the great Medal Roll Card Index?

 

Cheers,

 

Haywired

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EDWARD1

"The requirement to keep records of service for the grant of campaign medals, were laid down in King`s Regulations, 1912, Para 1734 and AO402 1913" extract from The Great War Medal Collectors Companion, Vol 1. Howard Williamson.

Eddie

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ss002d6252

The specific Medal Roll Index Cards as they exist for WW1 were started once the campaign medals were introduced for the war, so 1917 ish. There were certainly pre-war medal records - registers were kept for the Boer War, for example, but the WW1 Medal Roll Index Cards were only needed once the WW1 medal rolls started to be compiled (as they cards acted as the index to the rolls).

 

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252

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Keith_history_buff

Would it be the case that those MICs that relate solely to Silver War Badges were created prior to 1917? That could explain why some people have two cards within the WO 372/1 to WO 372/22 range.

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ss002d6252
30 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Would it be the case that those MICs that relate solely to Silver War Badges were created prior to 1917? That could explain why some people have two cards within the WO 372/1 to WO 372/22 range.

The SWB was introduced Sep 16 and, knowing the love of card indexes, I'd imagine the initial index was likely contemporary with that.

I haven't put much thought in to why some of the men have two cards and some only have one but presumably it means the indexes were combined at some point in to one card index.

 

Craig

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Keith_history_buff

It was a living, breathing means of administration, and I think I have come across 40 or so cards, created inter-war, where replacement Queen's South Africa medals are being requested by Imperial Yeomanry veterans. There are presumably cards for other units (I have seen one for the Private of the Wiltshire Regiment that a contact brought to my attention) with this very same scenario, but it was the IY that really stuck out in this record set which pertains to WW1 and the conflicts around Iraq, Waziristan.

Thanks for the response.

Keith 

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Mark1959

One thing I would say is whilst at the AMO I can never remember seeing a SWB card amongst the MICs. Assume they must have been there and my memory has faded, 

The need for an index card was immediate and at the end of the war absolutely essential. As I have said before, the Roll ref on the MIC linked to a ledger with all the refs in. This would tell you which one of the 100s and 100s of physical rolls to look in. Without the card finding anything was a needle in a haystack job. I concur with the input above

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TEW

I'm sure there are print date on the MICs, in red at bottom of reverse side. Just been trawling through a few and comparing to Medal Roll compliation dates.

 

Not been easy with ancestry's current issues with MIC searches.

 

Some MICs have a full date for when the card was printed;

date1.jpg.a63a0f6d42d05dfab72a4ca99cf7ef1d.jpg

date2.jpg.433e8d43a60c27aaaed582abad100175.jpg

 

Others have an abbreviated date, Oct 1919?;

Example. 9210 Boyd Scots Guards. 14 Star medal Roll compiled 29/2/1920. MIC printed Oct 1919. MR annotated 'No Card'

date5.jpg.ff34beb358cc0151a9461b02e1d3ffad.jpg

 

Interwar MICs that are pre-printed for Gen.S. - Feb 1929?

date3.jpg.bbfc7f265c497774f4439070417048fe.jpg

 

Another example but with Efficiency pre-printed, May 1933

; date4.jpg.6a9e080d1974d815e8442b48a669194b.jpg

 

Going back to the Type 1 MICs, they seem to be 4/19.

 

I thought things might be straight forward IE Early 14 Star rolls would require an early MIC date but things never quite that simple.

 

1914 Star to 5179, Adshead, Hussars, roll compiled 10/1/1918, IV dated 19/5/1918.

BWM & Vict Roll compiled 8/2/1921, IV dated May 1922.

 

His MIC seems to be printed Feb 1929. Perhaps a replacement?

 

SWB type cards follow the same pattern and may have dates 8/16, 8/17, 5/18, 2/19 etc. Compare the SWB roll compilation date to date printed on card then the card date is earlier than roll date.

 

No idea as to the two card query, I just tried looking for cards to men with early SWB issues (Sept 1916) and found them annotated on 'normal' MICs. Then some Oct 1916 issues onto SWB cards.

TEW

 

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Haywired

My thanks to all for the responses to my query of the 24th March, particularly to TEW for flagging up the print dates of the cards.  However, although I am now much wiser regarding this issue, it leaves me even more puzzled about Lt. W.R. Dodd's card.  Please find it attached with a 4/19 print date.  You will note that despite being awarded the usual Campaign Medals, etc., 'No overseas Service' is stated against 'Theatre of War'.  The reason I asked the original question on the 24th March was that Lt. Dodd did not go overseas until April, 1918, and I wondered if the card had been started before that date (but why would the card have been started if there was no entitlement to medals?).  I'm now wondering if the 'No overseas Service' applies to the Territorial War Medal only, and not the Victory and British War Medals.  The handwriting is quite different in relation to those medals.  It's also interesting to see that Lt. Dodd enlisted the assistance of his local M.P. to badger the War Office - it seems to have worked too!

 

I've just checked my copy of The Medals Year Book regarding entitlement for the award of the T.W.M.  I quote, "To qualify, the recipient had to be a member of the T.F. on or before the 30th September, 1914, and had to have served outside the United Kingdom between 4th August, 1914 and 11th November, 1918."  Lt. Dodd meets these requirements.

 

Any further thoughts?30850_A000453-02566.jpg.974de212fc0ede8841dff59ca194aa7f.jpg

 

 

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Keith_history_buff

My advice goes off on a tangent, away from cards, given that you are now asking a question that is way different to that of the original post.

I would suggest that you go to Kew, and see what you can find out from his service record, as to his service.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C690211

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TEW

I'd say this card was initiated when they received the application for the TWM 19/2/1920. All three medals were issued 14/12/22 and as an officer he had to apply for BWM & Victory. There are a few oddities. Why does it state Lieut and NCO? Why did it take nearly 3 years to issue TWM? And as you say, why the no overseas service? Not seeing a qualifying date on card though. 

TEW

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Keith_history_buff

Let's run through the timeline

04 Aug 1914 - War is declared

31 Dec 1915 - Cut-off for 1914/15 Star eligibility.
.                        The recipient would have to have the Theatre of War recorded.
.                        He had not served overseas as of this date, so it does not apply

01 Jan 1916 to 11 November 1918
At some point, he has been overseas, hence qualifying for the BWM and Victory Medal. The fact that he had 'no overseas service' prior to this time period makes him ineligible for the 1914/15 Star. This phrase in red, as stated on the card, is a bit of a red herring.
As an Officer, he has to apply for his medals. If he doesn't apply, then he doesn't receive them and, in keeping with the theme of the original post, it is his communication with the War Office that triggers the creation of his medal index card

19 Feb 1922
He applies for his medals via his M.P., hence the card is created

2 Sep 1922
EF 9 is returned

14 Dec 1922
His (i) TFWM, (ii) BWM & Victory Medal entitlement are recorded on the medal rolls for officers of the Northumberland Fusiliers.
It will be possible to confirm this by looking at the medal roll on Ancestry
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=5119

As per my prior post, if you want to know about his service, a trip to Kew is the way forward.
 

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Keith_history_buff

I just want to revisit two points here, to conclude this topic.

As said before, it was a living, breathing means of administration. The people working on this would not have foreseen that a century later, the general public would have access to MICs, and would try and learn clues as to the history of the service of their great grandfather. The clerks working on this would have their own "shorthand", their own terminology, and their tacit knowledge of medal eligibility requirements. As long as they understood it, that was all that mattered - like many an administrative setup that is a means to an end.

The logic may seem a bit twisted. It goes to lengths to stress he is not eligible for a 1914/15 Star. Contrarily, whilst he
did not qualify for the star, he is one of those relatively rare cases who is eligible for the Territorial War Medal instead. That is my take on why the card has been marked up in such a manner.

Thanks
Keith

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TEW

I'm not sure where the 14/15 Star comes into it. Not mentioned on card at all.

I agree with the timeline with exception of Star medal. When the TWM was applied for the card was created. Proof of overseas service was not found, card annotated as such. Nearly 3 years later proof of overseas service was provided with his application for campaign pair. On finding an existing card for him they realise he is entitled to TWM and send out all three together. I suspect his commission is between 1920 and 1922 hence the 'NCO' when the card was created.

TEW

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Keith_history_buff

My take on this is that it's a negative confirmation that is recorded on the card. He is eligible for a Territorial War Medal, one of the conditions precedent being that he was not (a) already in receipt of a 1914/15 Star given that he had 'no service overseas' prior to the cut-off of 31 December 1915. As a consequence, there is no entry date recorded, nor is there the theatre of war.

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TEW

All I've managed to glean is that his 2 Medal Rolls are as expected with regards to issue dates.

 

He was also a POW. In diary listed as W+M 27/5/1918. Repatriated Dec 1918.

TEW

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TEW

Found more on this man.

 

Totally wrong about his late commission date. Still not found him in London Gazette but Hart's Army list has him in Aug 1918 as commissioned 1/7/1917.

 

His background can be seen on ancestry public trees. DOB March 1879, died 21/3/1930.

 

Stood for Urban Council election, Longbenton, Allotment Ward, Assistant Schoolmaster. Morpeth Herald 22/3/1912.

Attended Durham University, Bede College 1901-03, they have a photo of him.

 

Still not sure about the MIC entry = Supply Column. NCO

It may be an error as there is another WRD Staff Sgt. RFA #90111 & 6505. Address in Beresford, Northumberland. Or of course he had former service in ASC UK only.

TEW

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ss002d6252
5 minutes ago, TEW said:

Found more on this man.

 

Totally wrong about his late commission date. Still not found him in London Gazette but Hart's Army list has him in Aug 1918 as commissioned 1/7/1917.

 

His background can be seen on ancestry public trees. DOB March 1879, died 21/3/1930.

 

Stood for Urban Council election, Longbenton, Allotment Ward, Assistant Schoolmaster. Morpeth Herald 22/3/1912.

Attended Durham University, Bede College 1901-03, they have a photo of him.

 

Still not sure about the MIC entry = Supply Column. NCO

It may be an error as there is another WRD Staff Sgt. RFA #90111 & 6505. Address in Beresford, Northumberland. Or of course he had former service in ASC UK only.

TEW


All from FMP copy of LG.
 

27 April 17 LG
image.png.62ffdbabcdf8d345ed41774c8e765587.png

 

17 May 17 LG

image.png.394ac2c70cf3cc1dd2be1f1903e0742d.png

image.png.a79948ddbacea3e3e63f2ec27e040835.png

 

1 Nov 17 LG
image.png.efa3a0e30102e82f2a94adfc961ce439.png

 

12 Nov 17 LG

image.png.aa6d3e0d5ee13f042cd6969e17a7e852.png

 

image.png.61507ebf875fbf8d7c3923f2fc4843b9.png

Craig

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TEW

Different OCR?

What's the 1/7/17 date in Hart's Army List?

TEW

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Keith_history_buff

His file at Kew should be able to shed further light on his pre-commissioned service. Of the WW1 army officers' files that I have consulted at Kew, the OR paperwork is included too.

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ss002d6252
2 hours ago, TEW said:

Different OCR?

What's the 1/7/17 date in Hart's Army List?

TEW

I believe so, FMP's seems to be far superior.

 

1 July 17 was when his promotion to Lt from 2nd Lt was dated, it wasn't gazetted however until November 17.

 

Craig

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Keith_history_buff

I came across a MIC placeholder, created in 1973, to document a BWM found in Aldershot, and relating to a Mercantile Marine recipient. That's the latest entry that I have seen in the index card system.

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Haywired

My thanks again to all who have contributed to the discussion regarding W.R. Dodd's war service.  I never cease to be amazed at the wealth of knowledge demonstrated by all the contributors to the Forum.

 

Although I have not yet seen Lt. Dodd's personal records at Kew, I have spoken to someone who has seen them.  In essence, he spent much of the war in the U.K. as a senior N.C.O.  He spent some time in York training recruits before being commissioned and going out to the Western Front in April, 1918.  He was wounded and taken prisoner exactly a month later.  He was repatriated towards the end of the year.

 

Since the Medal Card was not prepared until April, 1919 at the earliest, it is indisputable that he had overseas service under his belt by that time, so I remain puzzled by the 'no overseas service'.  In passing, he also received the Territorial Force Efficiency Medal.

 

Regards to all.

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TEW

Certainly think they should have crossed out that annotation once they realised he did serve abroad.

TEW

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hmsk212

Hi

 

My take is that it records the fact that he had no overseas service as an other rank, all of his service overseas was as an officer. It is quite common  to get annotations with " no rank service overseas" when a man was an officer but his medals were stamped as a Private as he only served overseas as a Private.

 

Steve

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