Pte Albert James Monckton (204961), King's Liverpool

[M_O'Neill]

(Starting a specific thread for this individial soldier, rather than the general one involving his brothers)

 

So I've confirmed that this particular soldier, Albert James Monckton, 204961 is my great-grand uncle. I have seen the index of a pension record that shows his discharge date as 22nd August 1919. I don't know what kind of pension entitlement this was.

 

His medal roll just lists his regiment as K.L.R, the only battalion info I can see is the 17th batallion listed as a former battalion. I know that they were reduced to cadre strength during the war but I have no idea where Albert may have been sent.

 

Any helo in tracking down further details would be greatly appreciated!

[ss002d6252]

His pension was for pulmonary TB, attributed to service.

Craig

[M_O'Neill]

Thanks Craig! I just found the document itself. A lot of it I don't understand, but it seems like most of it is to do with various assessments in the years 1920-1921, correct?

 

A question, if a soldier has only one battalion listed on their medal roll, does that mean it was the only battalion they served with?

[ss002d6252]

12 minutes ago, M_O'Neill said:

A question, if a soldier has only one battalion listed on their medal roll, does that mean it was the only battalion they served with?

Medal cards were designed to record overseas services for medal purposes so he could have had served with numerous battalions (or even other regiments) at home.- there's also the chance that he was temporarily posted elsewhere whilst overseas, and these are often not recorded. If it wasn't relevant to medal purposes then information is not generally recorded.

 

Quote

Thanks Craig! I just found the document itself. A lot of it I don't understand, but it seems like most of it is to do with various assessments in the years 1920-1921, correct?

Correct. He may well have received something between August 1919 and the ledgers starting to be used in 1920/21 but it's difficult to say. Certainly, in the period that the ledger covers his clam was rejected, granted and then cancelled.

Craig

Edited 23 March , 2019 by ss002d6252

[M_O'Neill]

Thanks for the info, Craig! It's super helpful.

 

So I read that the 17th Battalion of the King's Liverpool Regiment were 'reduced to cadre' with most of the men split up to different units. Those who stayed with the 17th were sent to Russia where they stayed until September 1919. 

 

Given that Albert was discharged in August 1919, I'm assuming that he didn't go to Russia, and was thus transferred to an unnamed unit - but is there any way to tell one way or the other?

[ss002d6252]

There would have been two main methods of discharge - as medically unfit or to the Class Z reserve, both of these could involve a pension. Sometimes the pension ledger notes the original pension number and that would have told us, typically this is one of those cases where it's not shown.

I can't see a Silver War Badge entry so I'd suggest he was discharged as Class Z and then either claimed a pension on release or made a later claim.

 

Craig

[M_O'Neill]

9 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

There would have been two main methods of discharge - as medically unfit or to the Class Z reserve, both of these could involve a pension. Sometimes the pension ledger notes the original pension number and that would have told us, typically this is one of those cases where it's not shown.

When a soldier was discharged during service, does the listed discharge date refer to when the decision was taken at the lines or to when the soldier had completed demob and was back home in England?

[ss002d6252]

Just now, M_O'Neill said:

When a soldier was discharged during service, does the listed discharge date refer to when the decision was taken at the lines or to when the soldier had completed demob and was back home in England?

It would be his official date of discharge so he would be back in the UK for discharge.

 

Craig

[M_O'Neill]

Ah okay. So it's then fairly unlikely that he served in Russia then (especially since the battalion itself sailed back to Britain just one month later).

[ss002d6252]

12 minutes ago, M_O'Neill said:

Ah okay. So it's then fairly unlikely that he served in Russia then (especially since the battalion itself sailed back to Britain just one month later).

I would think so..

 

Craig

[M_O'Neill]

Thanks Craig, you've been super helpful!

 

It's just a shame that the records don't list whatever unit James was moved to!

[ss002d6252]

48 minutes ago, M_O'Neill said:

Thanks Craig, you've been super helpful!

 

It's just a shame that the records don't list whatever unit James was moved to!

 

His 6 digit number was part of a range issued to 5th Bn KLR from late 16 / early 17onwards - at  the moment, how long he served with them is another matter, it could simply have been an administrative move at a depot.

 

EDIT:

It looks like men with similar numbers were from a variety of regiments so likely men grouped together for assignee at a depot - probably a mixture of recovered wounded and new men.

 

Craig

Edited 23 March , 2019 by ss002d6252

[ss002d6252]

There's a shortage of surviving service records but It looks like similar men were transferred to 17th Bn in August/September 18.

This raises an interesting point i that he may have gone to Russia after all - as these men don't seem to have had service with the 5th Bn (although numbered in their range) and Albert only has a that number on his medal card then when exactly did he serve overseas ?. If it was prior to August/September 18 then the medal records should show the earlier number, which doesn't. This suggests that his only overseas service was with 17th Bn and they only served overseas in Russia after June 18.
 

Craig

Edited 23 March , 2019 by ss002d6252

[M_O'Neill]

Wow, that's amazing work Craig! Thanks for taking the time to hunt through all that info!

 

So if I'm understanding correctly, either there's a weird mistake on the record rolls, or he only served overseas in Russia. If the latter is true, then I wonder where he was previously? I'm assuming he had *some* service prior to August 1918...

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, M_O'Neill said:

Wow, that's amazing work Craig! Thanks for taking the time to hunt through all that info!

 

So if I'm understanding correctly, either there's a weird mistake on the record rolls, or he only served overseas in Russia. If the latter is true, then I wonder where he was previously? I'm assuming he had *some* service prior to August 1918...

It certainly re-opens the possibility of Russia.

When was he born ?

Craig

[M_O'Neill]

Well he was born in 1895, which is why I assume previous service. He would have been 24 in 1919 so he would have been of military age for the whole of WW1.

[ss002d6252]

37 minutes ago, M_O'Neill said:

Well he was born in 1895, which is why I assume previous service. He would have been 24 in 1919 so he would have been of military age for the whole of WW1.

Whether or not he had previous service is lost to time. If he didn't voluntarily enlist then he would be conscripted in 1916 or later but there may have been reasons which allowed enlistment to be deferred. On the remaining records that's not really anyway to say.

Craig

[M_O'Neill]

Well this particular branch of my family just keeps producing mystery after mystery!

 

I've been looking at records regarding the British forces in Northern Russia but there don't seem to be many. Probably because the expedition was short lived and the British government seems to have wanted to draw a veil over the whole thing.

[seaJane]

Are you searching TNA's Discovery catalogue with Military Mission North Russia? That seems to call up the best set of results (have been searching them myself for the death of a chaplain).

[M_O'Neill]

Hi Jane, I didn't know about that resource, thanks for letting me know about it!

[seaJane]

Better results still if you select date filter 1909-1924... Unfortunately none can be downloaded, so a visit to assorted archives may be necessary (Liverpool, Liddell Hart in King's College London, IWM). There is one redundant result, ie the Needham papers in Cambridge.

[M_O'Neill]

So I just looked up the movements/stations of the 17th Bn K.L.R:

- Reduced to cadre May 1918
- Returned to England from the Western Front 30th June 1918

- 9th September 1918 brigade re-titled 235th brigade in advance of North Russia deployment.
- 11th October 1918 sailed for Murmansk from Glasgow.

 

So *if* he was indeed transferred to the 17th K.L.R. in August/September 1918, then it seems likely to me that, wherever else he'd been previously, he was part of the force being assembled for the Russian campaign. I also read somewhere that the majority of the force was made up of volunteers - would that explain the men from various regiments?

Does that seem correct or have I misread something?

[M_O'Neill]

So I've just read an internet blog posting that the British 'North Russian Expeditionary Force' was made up mainly of men 'not fit enough to serve in France' - but no source is given for this assertion.

 

Does anyone know if this was true or not?

[ss002d6252]

11 minutes ago, M_O'Neill said:

So I've just read an internet blog posting that the British 'North Russian Expeditionary Force' was made up mainly of men 'not fit enough to serve in France' - but no source is given for this assertion.

 

Does anyone know if this was true or not?

Looking at the mixture of men who seemed to be in the 17th Bn it is possible but it may simply be that they were medically recovered, fit, men who happened to end up in the 17th, or it could have simply been volunteers. I've not seen anything as yet which specifically would point me one way or the other.

 

Craig

[wrightdw]

17th Liverpool's certainly served with 'Archangel Command', North Russia Expeditionary Force 1918-19. They saw a fair bit of action against the Red Army in late 1918 and early 1919. They left Russia relatively lightly scathed with 22 fatal casualties although they had fought through a severe sub-arctic winter, some of the most difficult conditions experienced by the British Army during the war.

 

Interestingly they also had at least one officer and one OR held as POW's of the Red's in Moscow until release in a prisoner exchange in 1920.

 

The Bn. arrived in North Russia at 'Murmansk Command' on 17 October on board HMT Keenum but were transferred to Archangel not long after.

 

'A' Coy. remained for service at Archangel (Solombola docks) as force troops whilst 'B' and 'D' Coy's were dispatched for service on the Railway Front and 'C' Coy. on the Dvina River.

 

The Bn. was withdrawn to Archangel in June 1919 where they served as Base troops until evacuation, they lost a man, Pte. Bernard Murray drowned during a bathing party on 28 June 1919, the last battalion fatality in North Russia.