Cartridge Case ID

[michaeldr]

Friends in the field have picked up three cartridge cases in the last couple of days while visiting the site of the German base on Kilia Tepe, Gallipoli

and we would be grateful for help with their identification

 

1]

 

 

2]

 

3]

 

Thanks for your interest

Michael

Edited 17 March , 2019 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

1]

 

 

Looking at the WF Museum site, the layout pattern of these markings is very like those shown for Lebel 8 x 51R, Model 1886D

and brings the following suggestion for A.VE.D   ART.D   3 15

 

3 – 15 = possibly date of manufacture; March 1915, or  the third quarter of 1915?

A = ?

VE = Cartoucherei de Valence, France

D = ?

ART.D = ?

 

edit to add: Wiki suggests ART = Direction de l’Artillery ("Management of the Artillery")

 

Edited 17 March , 2019 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

2]

 

The layout pattern of the markings here (T   15) are very similar to the 6.5 x 53.5R Manlicher examples on the WFMuseum site
15 would indicate the year of manufacture 
T = ?

[michaeldr]

1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

3]



 

Is it too simplistic to suggest that this example is Fabrique Nationale?

If FN, then any ideas for which weapon was it used?

[michaeldr]

My thanks to Michelle for moving this

I think that I should have put it in the “Arms” from the beginning

Perhaps now one of our SAA experts will offer an opinion on the above

 

regards

Michael

[MikB]

On 17/03/2019 at 16:02, michaeldr said:

 

Is it too simplistic to suggest that this example is Fabrique Nationale?

If FN, then any ideas for which weapon was it used?

 

It looks semi-rimmed, and from the size of the thumb could be small enough to be a 7,65 mm Browning auto pistol round - AKA .32" ACP - for which many pocket pistols carried as backup guns were chambered at the time. Note that the metric/imperial calibre conversion is not exact - it was described as .32" to appeal to a recognised sector of the US civilian market before WW1.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_ACP

 

If it is that round (case nominally 17,3mm long), then Fabrique Nationale would be the most prominent of its original producers. 

Edited 23 March , 2019 by MikB

[Retlaw]

On 17/03/2019 at 15:13, michaeldr said:

 

Looking at the WF Museum site, the layout pattern of these markings is very like those shown for Lebel 8 x 51R, Model 1886D

and brings the following suggestion for A.VE.D   ART.D   3 15

 

3 – 15 = possibly date of manufacture; March 1915, or  the third quarter of 1915?

A = ?

VE = Cartoucherei de Valence, France

D = ?

ART.D = ?

 

edit to add: Wiki suggests ART = Direction de l’Artillery ("Management of the Artillery")

 

When I used to collect cartridges French cartridges were the worst for identifying everyone from the manufacture of the brass itself, to the final loading had a mark on then, same with the base of the bullets

[michaeldr]

MikB & Retlaw,

 

Many thanks for your helpful contributions here

[assafx]

On 17/03/2019 at 17:13, michaeldr said:

 

Looking at the WF Museum site, the layout pattern of these markings is very like those shown for Lebel 8 x 51R, Model 1886D

and brings the following suggestion for A.VE.D   ART.D   3 15

 

3 – 15 = possibly date of manufacture; March 1915, or  the third quarter of 1915?

A = ?

VE = Cartoucherei de Valence, France

D = ?

ART.D = ?

 

edit to add: Wiki suggests ART = Direction de l’Artillery ("Management of the Artillery")

 

 

Hi Michael,

 

I also find the french system to be very annoying.

 

ART.D - this is the designation of the cartridge case model.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8×50mmR_Lebel

 

the date found french ammunition is quarters, so we are talking about the 3rd quarter of 1915.

 

as far as i can tell A.VE = Cartoucherei de Valence, France but i might be wrong.

this is the catridge manufacturer the D after is the metal supplier in this case: Societe Electro Metallurgique de Dives.

 

Assaf

 

[assafx]

On 17/03/2019 at 17:38, michaeldr said:

 

The layout pattern of the markings here (T   15) are very similar to the 6.5 x 53.5R Manlicher examples on the WFMuseum site
15 would indicate the year of manufacture 
T = ?

 

Looks like Russian Nagant to me.

if so then it was made by Tula

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tula_Arms_Plant

 

the Ottomans used captured Nagant so finding it in Galipoli is probable.

[michaeldr]

Assaf,

 

Many thanks for your insights and help here

 

Michael