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German Ace Paul Achillies


Bennett

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Does anyone have a publication source which would indicate the 3,4,5& 6th kills of Paul Achilles which should be listed in the area east of Ostend in late September 1918 ? (Marine Jasta, DR  7?)

 Many thanks in advance

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Thanks, I did try the forum but was looking for a second opinion due what appears to me as somewhat incomplete information. It likely does not exist, but especially looking for fate of Camel E 4385 on September 25, 1918. Thanks again

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There is a book out called " Black September 1918 ( WW1's darkest month in the air ) by Norman Franks, Russell Guest & Frank Bailey Printed by Grubb Street ISBN 978-1-911621-11-9 this give Camel E4385 as being the 11th Victory of Leutnant Franz Piechulek of Jasta 56.

 

Steve

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Hello

That's interesting. In Trevor Henshaw's The Sky Their Battlefield he states that this aircraft Sopwith Camel E4385

of 213Sqdn was shot down by Ltn P Achilles of MFJaV over Hooglede. The pilot was 2Lt G Iliff who was killed.

This name rings a bell because he has been the subject of a recent thread on this forum

Regards

Geoff

Edited by sdparker
realise that Bennet started thread re G Iliff
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I have it that Iliff (Camel E4385) was lost in a combat three miles west of Torhout at 17:45 and that Piecheluk's claim was made at 18:50 over Kortemark (about 6 Km south-west of Torhout).  British and German tomes matched on this date, so unless someone has introduced an hour's discrepancy, I believe that Picheluk's victim was 2nd-Lieut Thomas Warburton of No 66 Squadron who was taken prisoner when his Camel, C66, was shot down south-east of Dixmude (about  6 Km west of Kortemark) at 18:50.

 

Potential matches for the loss of Iliff are: 

 

Ltn d R Achilles, MFJ V, Hooglede at 17:50 (Hooglede is about 9 Km south of Torhout)

Vzflgmstr Alexander Zenses, MFJ II, "Wynendaele" at 18:00 (Wijnendale is about 4 Km north-west of Torhout)

 

Achilles made another claim north-west of Roulers at 18:05, but Roulers is about 12 Km south of Torhout, so is probably not in the equation.

 

Graeme

 

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2 minutes ago, topgun1918 said:

I have it that Iliff (Camel E4385) was lost in a combat three miles west of Torhout at 17:45 and that Piecheluk's claim was made at 18:50 over Kortemark (about 6 Km south-west of Torhout).  British and German tomes matched on this date, so unless someone has introduced an hour's discrepancy, I believe that Picheluk's victim was 2nd-Lieut Thomas Warburton of No 66 Squadron who was taken prisoner when his Camel, C66, was shot down south-east of Dixmude (about  6 Km west of Kortemark) at 18:50.

 

Potential matches for the loss of Iliff are: 

 

Ltn d R Achilles, MFJ V, Hooglede at 17:50 (Hooglede is about 9 Km south of Torhout)

Vzflgmstr Alexander Zenses, MFJ II, "Wynendaele" at 18:00 (Wijnendale is about 4 Km north-west of Torhout)

 

Achilles made another claim north-west of Roulers at 18:05, but Roulers is about 12 Km south of Torhout, so is probably not in the equation.

 

Graeme

 

 

German time was one hour ahead of British time, wasn't it?

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Iliff has a card at ICRC where the Germans state that he was shot down at Gits, this matches the Hooglede area.

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/15/01/C_G1_E_15_01_0046/C_G1_E_15_01_0046_3236_0.JPG/

 

1 hour ago, topgun1918 said:

 I believe that Picheluk's victim was 2nd-Lieut Thomas Warburton of No 66 Squadron who was taken prisoner when his Camel, C66, was shot down south-east of Dixmude (about  6 Km west of Kortemark) at 18:50.

 

Graeme

 

 

Wasn't Thomas Warburton a day earlier? 24 iso 25 September 1918:

Warburton T,  204Sq 24.09.18 missing [C66 Sopwith F1] Last seen 5ml SE Dixmude on HOP. Lt T Warburton missing

ICRC has the same date:

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/04/01/C_G1_E_04_01_0211/C_G1_E_04_01_0211_0149.JPG/

 

Luc.

 

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Thanks to all to date.

 

I have someone chasing down any existing daily combat reports and other data for 213 Squadron at NA Kew,,but if they exist they are probably unlikely to yield a clue.

 

Thus far I have thought it was either Paul Achillies OR one of his DR 7 flight who was responsible for E4385. Records seem to show that he took credit for at least two Camels that day (maybe Sorly, Speakes??)by designated tail number, but to my current knowledge Iliff's E 4385 was not directly connected to a claim by Achilles? Either Paul had a very good day or a flight mate got Iliff.

  My questions may be remain a history mystery but thought I would give it a try   Thanks very much again.

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Thanks very much Luc LTD006,.

If I could ask a follow up question to your post that likely will not have a clear answer. I am not that familiar with an ICRC card, But could one make an assumption that since a card exists, that it could? mean that Iliff and/or his Camel were somehow identified by the Germans and that he may have buried in an unknown grave near Gitz? I would appreciate your further explaining the ICRC card ?  Thanks again  Ralph   

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I have been looking for the RAF casualties on 25 September 1918 before.

 

There is also Lt. LC Scroggie from 213 Squadron "missing 5ml SW of Ostende" that should be considered.

From http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70595 :

Lieut L C Scroggie (Kia), 213 Sqn, Camel D8216 - last seen when patrol attacked 7 Fokkers 5 miles south-west of Ostende 18:35/18:35 on HOP; Ltn d R Achilles, MFJ V, 5th victory [north-west of Roulers at 18:05/18:05] ?

The locations don't match and the TSTB II does not list a claim.

There are 5 planes from 213 Squadron listed in Trevor's book, all were active in that general area. Matching the claims is very difficult because the reported locations of the incidents (British and German) are not always correct.

 

Luc.

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Thanks Luc. About  45 minutes ago I asked a follow up question to your interesting post concerning the ICRC card for Iliff. Could you give that a look as I am not that familiar with the ICRC card process.  Thanks Ralph

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Ralph,

 

ICRC cards are just another source of information, the accuracy of it depends on the source where it came from.

These are sometimes very valuable to confirm dates and locations where soldiers were captured or buried.

The Gitz (Gits) location is new and probably doesn't come from a German air force claim but could be from ground forces which found the plane and the pilot.

Please note "probable and could be"..... as there is no concrete source mentioned like German army or regiment.

 

There is also a card for Scroggie without futher information:

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/15/01/C_G1_E_15_01_0076/C_G1_E_15_01_0076_1205_0.JPG/

The Germans probably found this plane and pilot also but it is possible that he could not be identified or they did not report him to the ICRC.

 

There was a German grave to an "unknown airman" SW of Torhout, my research shows that there are only 2 "candidates" : Iliff or Scroggie

I believe that this is the grave of Iliff but can't prove it without doubt, Scroggie is reported much more to the north but I need hard evidence for this. Your research for the 213 squadron could help to solve this.

 

Hope this helps,

Luc.

 

 

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Tracking back on Warburton, I have discovered that I have two dates in different databases, one says 24 September and the other 25 September 1918; I think 25 September is correct (The Sky Their Battlefield shows this date).

 

Graeme

 

Edited by topgun1918
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Luc,

Great & it does help. Can I ask what your sources and information you have for the "unknown grave" SW of Torhout and what leads you to believe it may have been 2/Lt. Iliff ? Is Charlottesburg on the card the suburb of Berlin where the ICRC based in 1918 ?.I had always assumed an ICRC card coming out of Germany likely meant that ground troops had discovered plane and/or pilot and perhaps buried him?

Thank you and forgive all the follow up questions. You know your stuff !    Ralph

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49 minutes ago, topgun1918 said:

Tracking back on Warburton, I have discovered that I have two dates in different databases, one says 24 September and the other 25 September 1918; I think 25 September is correct (The Sky Their Battlefield shows this date).

 

Graeme

 

 

Graeme,

 

I have seen that entry in TSTB II and have contacted Trevor for his view on this.

The casualty card also has the 24th matching the date on the German ICRC document:

 

Walburton.jpg.d635ae54eb93bb7838d100b16fe7e0ed.jpg

 

I don't know which is correct, errors are human and are sometimes copied.

 

Regards,

Luc.

 

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Luc,

I've just written to you.  I confirm that Warburton's Casualty Report clearly is dated 24th - it's a date error of mine - must have had this wrong date in my records for some time! Mea culpa!

 

Trevor

 

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46 minutes ago, Bennett said:

Luc,

Great & it does help. Can I ask what your sources and information you have for the "unknown grave" SW of Torhout and what leads you to believe it may have been 2/Lt. Iliff ? Is Charlottesburg on the card the suburb of Berlin where the ICRC based in 1918 ?.I had always assumed an ICRC card coming out of Germany likely meant that ground troops had discovered plane and/or pilot and perhaps buried him?

Thank you and forgive all the follow up questions. You know your stuff !    Ralph

 

Ralph,

 

I have searched the CWGC archive documents for soldiers that were once buried in German cemeteries in my hometown and to which British cemetery they were concentrated to. This has then expanded to most of the Ypres salient. Several soldiers and airman buried as Unknown were listed with details so that they could be identified. I have already submitted a number of cases to the CWGC with my findings for their approval. That grave with an unknown airman and some others are on my to do list requiring more information from British or German archives.

 

The headquarters of the ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross) was based in Geneva Switserland, they did receive requests from family for details on missing soldiers but also reports from countries and armies involved in the war regarding prisoners of war, burial locations etc..

Charlottenburg was an independent city to the west of Berlin at that time where several headquarters of the German army were located, there could have been a German branch of the Red Cross there but I'm not sure.

ICRC cards were always made at Geneva and contain or link to information and documents received from all these sources, this ranges from very specific information "soldier X died on this day and was buried in grave X at cemetery Y" to "we have the disc and/or soldiers book of soldier X without any further information".

 

The source of the information on the ICRC card for Second Lieutenant George Iliff is not conclusive, it probably comes from ground troops that found the plane and could identify the pilot (I don't see how a German pilot in an air fight could identify him). The remains were then transferred to a dedicated company that was responsible for the burial, these didn't report this. All this happened late September 1918 when the German army was collapsing and they had other stuff to do, detailed reporting was the least of their worries.

 

The Germans regularly provided information on the fate of pilots directly to the British (dropped letters, sometimes including photo's of the graves). These can sometimes be found in their officer files but there is nothing in the files for Iliff or Scroggie.

 

Regards,

Luc.

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Luc,

 

       Thanks for your detailed response. Fascinating stuff.

 

Could I ask one final follow up question ??. Can you share the location of that British airman "Unknown Grave"  SW of Torhout or other locations?? I will be over there likely sooner than later.

 

Thank you for your historical research and contributions. Important stuff!               Best of luck with your CWGC pursuits. My best wishes, Ralph

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  • 3 weeks later...

In 1917 the Germans made two airfields at Aartrijke (then Aertrycke) (a village next to Torhout and part of Zedelgem today). In the same period (July 1917)  they created a military cemetery in the same neighbourhood (at a place called Sparappel - now part of the parish of Wijnendale, where there was also a German lazaret), which is also at a small distance of Torhout. German military casualties were buried there. But Allied soldiers - and airmen - were also buried there by the Germans. When the Havilland 9 (B7657) with captain Gifford Davidge Horton and Harold Jeffrey McConnell was shot down at Aertrycke on 31.05.1918, these two Allied airmen were both buried at Wijnendale. As the place were Iliff came down was very near to this German military cemetery, it's very well possible he was buried there. This German military cemetery at Wijnendale doesn't exist anymore. The Allied graves of the German military cemetery of Wijnendale were transferred to Allied cemeteries. Not all of them went to the same Allied cemetery. So Horton rests now in Bedford House Cemetery, and McConnell at Larch Wood Cemetery. If there was a unknown airman buried at Wijnendale, it's possible that this was Iliff.  

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Hello,

 

Your information is not correct.

 

1. There was only one German airfield at Aartrijke according to German sources (which stretched from Aartrijke to Sparappelhoek).

 

2. Horton was originally buried in Eernegem German cemetery and was exhumed there by the American war graves service and reburied in Waregem. He was later returned to the CWGC and reburied in Bedford House Cemetery (see the different concentration documents). McConnel was also buried originally in Eernegem (and not in the German cemetery at Sparappelhoek/Wijnendale).

 

3. There were two British burials in Wijnendale, two airmen, Black and Sorley, who were also reburied at Larch Wood Cemetery. Sorley was originally buried as an unknown airman and is "believed to be".

 

Regards,

Jan

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Dear Jan,

 

Thanks for You information.

 

May I answer as follows:

 

1. There were two German airfields at Aartrijke. The works for the first one were started in february 1917 at the other side of the old people's home at the present Aartrijksestraat. The airfield was first used on 16.04.1917 by the Marine Feldjagdstaffel nr. 1 (MFJ I). The second German airfield was only build in juni 1917. The two airfields were nearly next to each other, but were used by other German units. There is a local diary from the brewer's son at Aartrijke, that gives very detailed daily reports of what was happening in the village. He pays much attention to the two airfields, describes what happened there, which units were coming and going at each of the airfields, etc. (See also in general: DENECKERE, B., Luchtoorlog boven West-Vlaanderen, p.134-135; RYHEUL, J., Airfields and airmen of northern West Flanders, in Forum Eerste Wereldoorlog). 

 

2. There is also another local history of Aartrijke in WW1, written in 1964 by the son of the local police man in WW1. This is not a diary and was written afterwards. There it is noted that Horton and Mcconnell were both buried the next day at the German cemetery of Wijnendale (my source...). But - as You suggested, I looked at the concentration documents at CWGC - and I think You are right: it was at Eerneghem German military cemetery. Thank You very much for this information!

 

3. I looked also at the CWGC concentration documents about Sorley and Black. They were first buried at Wijnendale German Cemetery. On these documents is also mentioned a third RFC officer buried there at Wijnendale: Flt Lt. C.G. Guy (died 12-8-17). There was an unknown Canadian Officer, which was believed to be Sorley. N° 213 Squadron lost four pilots on that date: Sparkes, Iliff, Scroggie and Sorley. Sparkes became Pow. The other three died. Sorley was the only Canadian, so I guess this was the reason for the identification. Scroggie and Iliff are both on the Arras Flying Services Memorial. It is said that Sparkes and Iliff went down west of Torhout, while Scroggie and Sorley went down south-east of Ostend. Is it possible that this isn't right, as Sorley was buried at Wijnendale (place which is west of Torhout)? It's only a question?

 

4. As it seems now that there was only one unknown Allied airman buried at Wijnendale German military cementery, and that was Sorley, one could conclude that Iliff wasn't buried there.

 

Thanks again for Your information.

 

Patrick

 

Edited by pat.58
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Patrick,

 

The Germans considered it one airfield according to archival sources.

 

Jan

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