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Danny152

Re: ID of 4th BTN KRRC MC holder???

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Danny152

Hiya all, Just bought this photo of eBay of a Major serving with the 4th Btn KRRC. Believed to be in either Egypt or Palestine. Can anyone help with his ID or why he got the MC? Thanks for your time and help. Regards

Screenshot_20190312-165150_eBay.jpg

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Danny152

I have managed to track this officer down.

 

Major William Douglas Barber MC

 

He was serving with the 2nd Btn KRRC when he was awarded the MC.  Does anyone know why and what date he earned this award?

 

Thanks and this will help with a piece of the jigsaw puzzle!

 

Regards

 

Danny 

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MBrockway

His MC was gazetted on 14 Jan 1916 - see here.

 

He was also gazetted on 01 Jan 1916 for an MID - see here.

 

At that time, while he was on the strength of 2/KRRC, this was as a supernumerary and he was actually serving extra-regimentally as a GSO3.  His MID appears under GHQ Staff etc.

 

From 15 Oct 1914 to 04 Aug 1915 he appears listed as ADC, Personal Staff, France.  Until 13 Jul 1915 he was ADC to the GOC, 5th Division.  From 14 Jul to 04 Aug 1915, he was ADC to the GOC, X Army Corps.  From 05 Aug 1915 to 26 Mar 1916, he was GSO3, Third Army, BEF.

 

Prior to his staff roles in France, he had been ADC to the GOC-i-c, South Africa.

 

From July 1917, he appears to have been a staff officer at the War Office.

 

He appears in the 1916 list of officers wounded under 2/KRRC, but he does not appear on any of several nominal rolls of officers for 2/KRRC in 1916, so I am fairly confident he did not serve with the battalion.  He was wounded twice in the Great War, but I have not yet tracked down the other instance.

 

He was also MID in 17 Feb 1915 and had already been awarded MiD in 1906 for operations in Nigeria.

 

He was granted Brevet Lt.-Col. rank on 01 Jan 1919.

 

He was educated at Eton, leaving in 1900.  He was commissioned into 1/KRRC having served in the 2nd Royal Rifle Regiment of Middlesex Militia - the KRRC's 7th (Militia) Battalion.

 

He was a county class cricketer.

 

He died on 26 April 1971.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

Edited by MBrockway

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MBrockway

How have you managed to identify the KRRC Major in Andrew's postcard as Billy Barber?

 

Mark

 

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Danny152

Great Mark! Thankyou.

 

The Rifles museum gave me the info after me sending them the photo. As this was taken in post WW1 and there was only 3 officers serving with the 4th Btn KRRC in India 1922 who had won the MC. As the other 2 had DSOs and other awards William was the only one with the standard WW1 medals and a MC.

 

Do you reckon different Mark? I guess if Notts cricket club has any team photos to confirm his ID?

 

Thanks

 

Danny 

Edited by Danny152

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MBrockway
On 14/03/2019 at 06:03, Danny152 said:

Great Mark! Thankyou.

 

The Rifles museum gave me the info after me sending them the photo. As this was taken in post WW1 and there was only 3 officers serving with the 4th Btn KRRC in India 1922 who had won the MC. As the other 2 had DSOs and other awards William was the only one with the standard WW1 medals and a MC.

 

Do you reckon different Mark? I guess if Notts cricket club has any team photos to confirm his ID?

 

Thanks

 

Danny 

 

Not necessarily as I'm still researching Barber, but you might perhaps ask the Rifles Museum why Barber is not in the Nominal Roll of officers who served with 4/KRRC during its tour at Quetta in 1922 on pp.141-2 of the 1922 KRRC Chronicle.

 

Barber also opened the batting for the KRRC cricket XI vs Rifle Brigade at Winchester on 19/20 July 1922 and, also at Winchester, played as No 5 for the Greenjacket XI vs. Free Foresters on the previous two days.

 

The cricket archive sources also have Barber playing in a match between a Rhine Army XI and the MCC at Cologne in June 1922.

 

Barber was not a battalion commander in 1922 and, as a Brevet Lt.-Col., he is highly unlikely to have served under another Lt.-Col. as a subordinate field officer in a battalion.  Clearly he was in the UK and Germany in Summer 1922, so most probably in a Staff job with the BAOR.

[UPDATE: Further research has revealed he went out to Cologne in April 1922 in command of the Rear Party of 2/KRRC after the rest of the battalion had gone to Upper Silesia, so no BAOR staff job. This role may have become redundant in early July 1922 when the majority of 2/KRRC arrived in Cologne back from Silesia - see below]

 

Where have you got the 1922 date from?

 

I *think* a Brevet Lt.-Col. would have worn the rank pips of a Lt.Col.  The man in Andrew's photo seems to be a major to me.

 

The man also seems to have two ribbons up - MC and (probably) 1914 Star.  In 1922 Billy Barber would also have the British War Medal and Victory Medal up ... and where is his Boer War QSA?

 

Any KRRC major in 1922 with a Star ribbon would also have the BWM and VM up, which surely makes a 1922 date suspicious?

 

If this is Billy Barber, then the right hand ribbon would have to be his QSA - that's certainly possible, but NOT after late 1918/early 1919 when first the Star and then the BWM and VM ribbons began to appear.

 

Certainly a few difficulties with the man definitely being Billy Barber in 1922.

 

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway

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Danny152

Mark,

 

The photo turned up in the post and he does have more than 2 medal ribbons and look like he has a further dark ribbon. Not sure if this is a QSA?  I agree with you with all the evidence this might not be Barber but going from the information on the card saying 4th Btn KRRC and when they served in India?  I will re-engage with the museum and see what they say.

 

V/r

 

Danny 

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MBrockway

The QSA would come next after the MC followed by the later campaign ribbons.  Zooming in massively on the version from the original fleaBay lot, I do see what you mean about a third ribbon though.  The image is too grainy to be sure though.  Any chance you could post a close up of his ribbons and his rank insignia from your original?

 

Barber did not get a KSA by the way.

 

I've made some further progress on Barber's service ...

 

28 Jan 1922 - Brevet Lt.-Col. W.D. Barber, MC, joined 2/KRRC at CLONES, IRELAND
March 1922 - 2/KRRC in GERMANY, via Dublin, Holyhead, Portsmouth, Dover, Ostend, Cologne (in stages). En route for Silesia.
02 Apr 1922 - 2/KRRC arrived at LUBLINITZ in UPPER SILESIA (around the modern Polish/Czech border)
05/06 Apr 1922 - 2/KRRC's Rear party under Lt.-Col. W.D. Barber, MC (A Coy, details and married families) left Portsmouth, arriving ZUGWEG BARRACKS, COLOGNE on 6th.
08 Jul 1922 - All elements of 2/KRRC reunited at COLOGNE.  Bn. now in 2nd Rhine Brigade.

25 Sep 1922 - Brevet Lt.-Col. W.D. Barber, MC, struck off strength of 2/KRRC on proceeding to CONSTANTINOPLE as Brigade Major

 

You'll see this backs up his not appearing in the 1922 4/KRRC Officer Roll.  Also his cricket appearance vs the MCC in Cologne in June 1922.  When the battalion elements all reunited in the Rhineland, he would likely no longer have been required to command the "Rear Party" there, so in early July would have been freed up to return to Blighty and appear in the other cricket matches in Winchester.

 

Early in 1923, Barber was transferred to the Northamptonshire Regiment effective 07 Feb 1923.  He was still a Brigade Major until until Aug 1923, so I assume this was due to the Northants being present in Constantinople whereas the KRRC were not, but I have found no detail on the stations of the Northants Regt in the inter-war years..

 

He then remained in the Northants, eventually becoming commander of 2nd Bn. on 14 Mar 1929  In 1933 he returned to the Staff as AA&QMG (Assistant Adjutant & Quartermaster General), 5th Division, effective 24 Apr 1933, eventually retiring effective 24 Apr 1937.

 

 

Here are his later London Gazette entries ...

 

LG 13 Oct 1922, Issue 32755, p.7202 - original here
Major & Brevet Lt.-Col. W.D. Barber, MC, KRRC to be Brigade Major, effective 29 Sep 1922.
 

LG 06 Feb 1923, Issue 32793, p.908 - original here
Maj. & Bt.Lt.-Col. W.D. Barber, MC, from KRRC to be Major, Northamptonshire Regt, effective 07 Feb 1922 [but see next entry], with seniority from 04 May 1916 and to retain his present appointment.
 

LG 06 Mar 1923, Issue 32805, p.1993 - original here
Date of transfer corrected to effective 07 Feb 1923, not 1922 as published in LG 06 Feb 1923.
 

LG 18 Sep 1923, Issue 32863, p.6275 - original here
Bt.Lt.-Col. W.D. Barber, MC, Northamptonshire Regt, relinquishes temp appointment as Brigade Major, effective 24 Aug 1923.
 

LG 04 Mar 1924, Issue 32915, p.1927 - original here
Territorial Army - Commands & Staff
Bt.Lt.-Col. W.D. Barber, MC, Northamptonshire Regt, to GSO 2nd Grade, effective 25 Feb 1924
 

LG 12 Oct 1926, Issue 33210, p.6545 - original here
Territorial Army - Commands & Staff
Capt. W.P. Buckley, DSO, DCLI, to GSO 2nd Grade, vice Bt.Lt.-Col. W.D. Barber, MC, Northamptonshire Regt, effective 25 Sep 1926
 

LG 15 Mar 1929, Issue 33477, p.1821 - original here
Maj. & Bt.Lt.-Col. W.D. Barber, MC, to be Lt.-Col. effective 14 Mar 1929
 

LG 14 Mar 1933, Issue 33921, p.1778 - original here
Lt.-Col. W.D. Barber, MC, Northamptonshire Regt, on completion of his period of service in command is placed on the Half Pay List.  Effective 14 Mar 1933
 

LG 14 Mar 1933, Issue 33921, p.1777 - original here
Lt.-Col. W.D. Barber, MC, Half Pay List, late Northamptonshire Regt, to be Colonel with seniority 01 Jan 1923.  Effective 14 Mar 1933
 

LG 02 May 1933, Issue 33936, p.2937 - original here
Col. W.D. Barber, MC, Half Pay List, to be AA&QMG (Assistant Adjutant & Quartermaster General), 5th Division, effective 24 Apr 1933
 

LG 23 Apr 1937, Issue 34391, p.2628 - original here
Col. W.D. Barber, MC, retires on Retired Pay, effective 24 Apr 1937.
 

HTH

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by MBrockway

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MBrockway
12 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Barber was not a battalion commander in 1922 and, as a Brevet Lt.-Col., he is highly unlikely to have served under another Lt.-Col. as a subordinate field officer in a battalion. 

 

 

Looking at the Nominal Roll of officers serving with 2/KRRC on 31 Dec 1922, I notice that the CO was a Brevet Colonel, the 2-i-c was a Brevet Lt.-Col., but that the officer commanding D Coy was another Brevet Lt.-Col., so my earlier statement above is clearly inaccurate!

 

However we have anyway since discovered that Barber was in 2/KRRC for most of 1922 and was certainly NOT in India.

Edited by MBrockway

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MBrockway

I have an uncorroborated lead that Barber may have been a GSO with 48th (South Midland) Division in Italy in 1917/1918

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RedCoat

Here are some other photos of Col W D BARBER for you to compare -

 

The First is taken in 1922, both the others are in the early 1930's - Same man I would say!

 

Kind regards, Daniel.

 

 

Barber 1922.JPG

W D Barber 2.JPG

W D Barber.JPG

Edited by RedCoat
additional info

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