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Remembered Today:

Seeking information on the WW1 service of an Irish soldier


John Robinson

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I have been researching the life of my grandfather, John Allen, who was born in Belfast on 15 Mar 1885, but with the minimum of information available to me I am struggling to obtain any meaningful information regarding his military service in WW1.

He enlisted on 15 Sep 1916* and was appointed to the 3rd Battalion The Border Regiment, Conway with a possible (?) Regimental No. of 26899.  The 3rd (Reserve) Battalion The Border Regiment was stationed at Carlisle in 1914, and then moved to Shoeburyness before moving to Conway during January 1916, therefore, I am assuming this was, in fact, his actual regiment at that time.

I believe he served in France in 1917 and 1918 and his Certificate of Transfer to Reserve on Demobilisation on 29th Mar 1919 (MGC Records Z.R. 50 72/624) records he was transferred to the reserve from the 36 Battalion Machine Gun Corps having enlisted in The Border Regiment on 7th Sep 1916* (*an 8 day discrepancy).  His Regimentatal No. was 68271.

The only other information I have is a record of his injuries sustained in France:

On 12th May 1917 sustained gunshot wounds to right thigh

On 22nd August 1917 sustained gunshot wounds to right shoulder

On 21st August 1918 sustained gas poisoning

On 1st October 1918 sustained multiple shell wounds to face, head, both legs and right arm, remaining in hospital for 149 days

I am really hoping there is somebody at The Great War Forum with the knowledge needed to give me some pointers on how I may discover further details which would mean a very great deal to me.

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Assuming the above information came from his service record this shows he was conscripted, or called up for service on the 7th September 1916.  The record shows he was living in Salford when called up.  He would have been told to report to the local Depot/Recruiting Office.

 From there he was posted to the Depot of the Border Regiment on the 10th September and then on to the 3rd Bn., a Reserve/Training Unit.

On completion of basic training (twelve weeks) he was transferred to the MGC on the 21st November 1916 and would have been posted to the Corps Training Battalion at Grantham.  Training there was around six weeks.  On the 18 January 1917 he was posted to the BEF, he would have gone to the MGC Base Depot at Camiers, and from there posted to an active service unit.  He was posted to 119 Company MGC (40th Division) on 13 February 1917.  Wounded as above in May he returned to the Base Depot on the 26 July 1917 and from there posted to 44 Company MGC (15 Divisio) on the 5th August. Wounded once again he was repatriated to the U.K. 

He returned to France on 29th March 1918 and back to Camiers the following day. Around this time the MGC was reorganised and the Companies merged into Battalions, and became Divisional Troops. They took the number from the Division to which attached. He was posted to 21 Battalion on the 2nd April to put this into context during the German Spring Offensive.  

On the 11th May he was back at Camiers and on the 6th June posted to 36 Battalion.  This was his last active service unit, wounded as above he returned to the U.K. on the 10 October 1918.

 

The war diaries of the MGC Companies/Battalions above are available at TNA

or on Ancestry.

119 Coy http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354284 

44 Coy http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352797

21 Battalion http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353142

36 Battalion http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354008

 

Suggest you look at the Long Long Trail for further information on researching a soldier and the MGC

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by kenf48
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Dear Ken

I cannot believe you were able to put all this together in such a short time.  Thank you very much in deed for all this new information and I will certainly follow-up the references you kindly provide.  I think I need to start with why he was living in Salford at the time of conscription!

Best regards

John

 

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He was aged 30 Years 6 months on enlistment.  His next of kin given as, father Robert Allen resident of Balllygraffan, Comber, County Down.  He gave his address as Zetland House, Cross Lane Salford and his occupation was labourer.  I can’t see him in the 1911 Census but there were labourers and dock labourers born in Ireland in rooms in Cross Lane.

 

Although there was no conscription in Ireland the terms of the Military Service Act were men who,  ‘on the 15 August 1915 were ordinarily resident in Great Britain’.  

 

Ken

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Apologies I assumed the details in your original post came from his service record which is on Ancestry

here if you subscribe

or on Find My Past https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=gbm/wo363-4/7290007/27/350&fulfillmenttypekey=6630

 

Both offer a free trial, don’t forget to cancel before it ends, or alternatively can be viewed for free at your local library.  

 

Ken

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Ken

You have been very helpful to me and with the aid of your help and advice I have discovered more than I had ever expected.  However, I'm not really sure how the website works.  I asked for help and you gave it. Is it possible to continue asking further questions because it seems to be the case when something new is discovered it leads to further areas which need to be explained? Your assistance has been invaluable to me, but I am not sure why you have been prepared to help me as you have.  I hope you will be prepared to help me again but I am worried I am missing something that I should have done in return. 

Best regards

John 

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Ask away, this is a collaborative forum with a common interest, some might say obsession😉, in the Great War and the men and women who fought, or remained at home.  Personally I find it interesting to try and piece together their lives and the wider context of how they lived, and died.

 

If I can’t answer your queries someone else probably will.  So ask away and welcome to the club, who knows in ten years time you may still be here😱

 

Ken

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Hi Ken

Thank you for your reply and kind assurances.  I am certainly becoming obsessive and the more I find out the more I want to know.

Using the Statement of the Services of my grandfather (you obviously looked this up) I have compiled the Word document copied below to which I have added some of the information you helped me with, and from other sources in my possession in red italics. If you look back to your original reply to me you will see a gap of nearly 6 months (from 08.10.1917 to 29.03.18. on my attachment).  John Allen applied for a war pension and included on the application is a synopsis of his war record including Particulars of Man's Medical History During Services and this gap is also reflected there. His service record is obviously incomplete and I'm assuming I will not be able to find out what he was doing during those 6 months.  Would I be correct?

I only have page 2 of the claim for a pension (ALLEN John 13/MA/520) so not sure if anything relevant there - my niece has page 1 but she cannot find it for the moment!

Regards John

STATEMENT of the SERVICES of No. (26899) 68271 John Allen

Corps

Battalion or Depot

Promotions, Reductions,

Casualties, &c.

Dates

General Service

Living Zetland House, Cross St Salford

Called up for Service

07.09.1916

Border Reg.

Depot

Joined

10.09.1916

Border Reg.

3 Battalion

Reserve/Training Unit

Posted

15.09.1916

Machine Gun Corps

Corps Training Battalion Grantham

Transferred

21.11.1916

Machine Gun Corps

Base Depot Camiers

BEF France

20.01.1917

Machine Gun Corps

Base Depot

Camiers

Posted

20.01.1917

Machine Gun Corps

119 Company

Posted

13.02.1917

 

 

Wounded

12.05.1917

 

 

Hospital/Convalescent Depot (France?) until  

 

26.07.1917

Machine Gun Corps

Base Depot

Camiers

Posted

26.07.1917

Machine Gun Corps

44 Company

Posted

05.08.1917

 

 

Wounded

22.08.1917

 

 

Transferred UK Hospital stayed for 34 days/27.09.17

24.08.1917

Home

Base Depot

Posted

25.08.1917

 

 

Granted furlough from………..

To……………………………………………..

29.09.1917

08.10.1917

 

 

Nearly 6 months to next date?

 

696/2/18 (?)

Camiers

BEF France

29.03.1918

 

Base Depot

Camiers

Posted

30.03.1918

 

21 Battalion

Posted

02.04.1918

 

 

Sustained Gas Poisoning.

In hospital until

21.04.1918

11.05.1918

663/2/18 (?)

Base Depot Camiers

Posted

11.05.1918

1187/2/18 (?)

36 Battalion

Posted

06.06.1918

 

 

Wounded

01.10.1918

 

 

Transferred UK Hospital 149 days (07.03.1919)

09.09.1918

9209 (?) Home

RD CO (?) Regimental Depot

Posted

10.10.1918

Class ‘Z’

Army Reserve

Demobilisation

29.03.1919

 

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If you have access to his record, you will see on Army form 2016, on examination he was considered fit for and sent to the Command Depot.  The MGC Command Depot was at Alnwick see LLT 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-evacuation-chain-for-wounded-and-sick-soldiers/command-depots/

 

The form is dated 27/9/1917, and indicates a gunshot wound to the shoulder.  A stamp on the form indicates he appeared before a medical board at 2/1 Southern General Hospital, Birmingham.  He was granted home leave to Ireland from 29/9/1917 to 8/10/1917.  

On his return from leave he would have been sent to the Command Depot as the examining doctor did not consider he was fit for duty.

 

Once pronounced fit at the Command Depot he would have been posted back to the Base Depot where, as an experienced man he may have been on ‘Base Details’ until his return to the BEF.  There is an entry ‘Draft  124 proceeded overseas 28/3/1918.  A significant date as it was one week after the losses of the 21st March when every trained man would be needed in France.  It is quite possible he was posted from the Command Depot.

 

We do not know for certain what happened in those six months but six months does not seem excessive to recover from a penetrating wound to the shoulder.  Machine gunners had to be fit and be able to carry heavy weights, e.g. ammunition when going into action.  The Command Depot was not a holiday camp, though after the Western Front it may have seemed like it but every effort was made to get men fit enough to return to the fray.

 

Ken

 

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Hi Ken

Once again thanks for your valued input.  I have to say it is at last beginning to make sense to me.  There are still, what you would probably consider basic stuff, but when soldiers are said to be 'transferred' or 'joined' how do they travel to where they are ordered to go.  I imagine they get a travel warrant of some sort and go by train.  Presumably this would involve numbers of soldiers moving at a time with or without (?) officers.  Would there be other means of travel here and in France?  When embarking for Camiers would they have moved from a particular UK port and would they land at Boulogne or other port?

If I am asking too much please tell me as I do not wish to abuse the help you give.

Regards

John 

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When posted to France men, unless they were on leave when they would make their own way, machine gunners would generally be posted in a draft from the Depot at Grantham.  A few of Daily Orders survive as fragments on Find My Past.  There is no consistency as to the port for the MGC men it was sometimes Southampton to Le Havre, but there were probably just as many who landed at Boulogne.  They then went to the MGC Depot at Camiers, this is just down the road from Etaples no more than a couple of miles and there are many reference in the literature to the journey to the Base Depot at Etaples e.g. https://spartacus-educational.com/FWWarrival.htm

 

The MGC drafts probably marched from the railhead at Etaples to Camiers.

There were officers detailed to accompany infantry drafts, and often moved up to the front with men.

 

However as the MGC tended to deploy in smaller groups they would make their way to the Corps Reinforcement Camp under a senior NCO (or if one was not going that way a 'senior' private) usually by train.  From there they would be posted to a Divisional Reserve or Depot Battalion, and then posted to a MG Company, or later a Battalion. They would usually join the unit when it was out of the line for further orientation and training.  I would stress this is a generalisation, individual experience may differ and the fortunes of war could accelerate the process.  

 

Although examples of the infantry making their way to the front are relatively common they are less frequent within the MGC.  The journey above is described by George Coppard in "With a machine gun to Cambrai" (required reading if you have an interest in the MGC!) and was in 1917.  He was the sole reinforcement for his Company, though he was given charge of six others from the Depot to the Division. The final stage of his journey was on foot with a guide to the Company HQ.  Another Machine Gunner recalled being met by a 'fearsome Sergeant Major on arrival at his Company.'

 

Ken

 

 

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Hi Ken

I have never been interested in either World War in the past, but because of my new interest in learning what life during WW1 would have been like I am reading everything I can to increase my understanding.  I suppose I want it to be orderly and clearly defined which I now realise it cannot be with so many variables and different options, but your help has made a lot of things clear which I would still be struggling to understand.  I found a Time Team programme on YouTube in which they excavated part of the MGC training area in Belton Park, Grantham which was really helpful and interesting.  I keep collecting more and more information which I would like to incorporate into my grandfather's story, but I'm beginning to feel this is not the way forward.  I think what I should do is framework it out and then add in new or more detailed bits as I learn more.

I am on holiday in Spain from Wednesday this week so I will not be able to work on this for a short while and I will really miss it.

Thanks again Ken for all your help.

Regards

John

 

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