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Remembered Today:

Sergeant Major Frederick Brookman Reg. No 23961 - Help please


Tonks55

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Hi forum members,

 

I'm hoping that someone will be kind enough to help me with my research on my grandfather, Frederick Brookman, born 9.4.1887 who was a Sergeant Major in the 20th Heavy RGA brigade then later , where he was awarded the Meritorious Service award, in the 190th Heavy RGA brigade. I have gathered most of what is in Ancestry but I am trying to fill in the gaps.

 

He was a career soldier in that he had enlisted before the great war broke out, appearing in the 1911 census in the barracks in Gibraltar and was still in the forces in Gibraltar in 1922 as I have records of him joining the Gibraltar lodge of the Freemasons. Unfortunately I have been unable to track down his service record to find out specifically what units he served in (either because of my lack of knowledge or the fact that his is one of the 'burnt records').

 

Ultimately I would like to track down which units he served with and where they were, and in which battles they were engaged. All I am able to glean is that he was in France in 1915, but probably transferred to Salonica when the 20th Heavy Brigade transferred to Salonica, via Marseilles in November 1915. MICs are attached.

 

There are one or 'two red herrings' along the way, such as 'Records show a Frederick Brookman also signing up to the Royal Warwickshire regiment at age 39 years - this is his father also called Frederick (b1865) who also signed up at an alleged age of 39 (taking 11 years of his actual age of 50 to qualify). Also my grandfather had a son called Frederick but he signed up to the Royal Marines in the second world war.

 

So if anyone can help me with filling the gaps, especially when he signed up, which units he served in and where they were involved in action in Salonica, as well as when he left the army then I would be eternally grateful.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Andy.

 

 

Frederick_Brookman_MIC_MSM.jpg

Frederick_Brookman_MIC_VBS.jpg

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Hi Andy,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

21 minutes ago, Tonks55 said:

Frederick Brookman, born 9.4.1887

 

From an index of service files held by the MoD, it looks like he might be this chap, renumbered to 1402706 in the1920's.

 

image.png.75c3af5e29f9327a82407eb0ff26110f.png

 

If you wanted to take a £30 gamble, you should be able to get a copy of what is probably his heavily weeded service file - see here. Contrary to the general advice shown, as he was born in 1887, you shouldn't need to supply a copy death certificate with an application. There is a helpdesk phone number here

 

If that were to be him, hopefully you would be able to map his WW1 war service against unit war diaries.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

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War Diaries for RGA in Salonika are 

 

20th Brigade WO95/4794

 

190 heavy Bty RGA WO95/4797.

 

They are not digitised so a visit to Kew will be needed

 

As your grandfather was awarded the MSM it may well be mentioned in the War Diary even if only to say BSM Brookman to Salonika for MSM presentation.  There is unlikely to be a citation, the MSM is presented for very hard work over a long period of time rather than anything spectacular.  

 

Julian

Edited by JulianR
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Thanks very much Chris. The renumbered service number has allowed me to track a discharge record in Ancestry, although unfortunately it is a text only transcription so it doesn't provide an actual date of discharge from the index details. As you say a £30 punt looks a good bet for more details (better odds than my normal bets ;)).

 

A trip to Kew might then be worthwhile, when I am next in London, albeit a bit of a journey.

 

Thanks very much for your help.

 

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Thanks, Julian. A visit to Kew might be in order. I did have a 'go' some 5 or 6 years ago, but quite frankly didn't do the preparation I needed to. Now I am retired I have had the time to be a little more prepared. I just need to convince my wife to visit the Kew gardens, alone, whilst my nose is buried in the archives.

 

Thanks for your help. 

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I would suggest that you look up on their website how to register.  There might be a day only pass, but any pass takes time to get issued and you need ID.  I think you can order documents in advance even on a day pass which will save you time.  Take a digital camera and photograph all you need.  Make sure you get there for opening time and try to choose either the Tuesday or Thursday when they do the extended hours of opening.  

 

 

Edited by JulianR
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Hi Andy,

 

If you can establish precisely what you are after, file copying services from the TNA such as this one can offer competitive rates that avoid travel costs/time. Might be worth getting a quote? I don't think though that they would be able to help you with MoD records.

 

Regards

Chris

Edited by clk
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You are right, Chris, in that Kew won't be able to help with MoD records. Your links in post #2 are correct for that.

 

1 hour ago, JulianR said:

you need ID.

Not only do you need ID, but when I went in 2007-8 you needed two pieces of ID, one of which had to be a utility bill or similar with your address on. I hadn't realised this, and had to make an embarrassing special-pleading phone call to their naval expert to come and vouch for me.

 

Things may have changed, but do check their website!

 

sJ

 

Edited by seaJane
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Hi Andy,

 

FMP have a record (link) which links the 23961 Medal Index Card number to the 1402706 MoD index (re)number. I guess what that would mean is that it wouldn't be so much of a gamble getting a copy of the right file, but rather (after the inevitable weeding) what is left in it. The FMP record indicates that he enlisted on 1.11.1905, and was discharged 31.10.1927.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit: As seaJane points out, the National Archives won't hold his service file. You'd have to apply to Glasgow as per the method linked in post #2. Unit war diaries should though be held by the National Archives.

Edited by clk
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From what Chris has just said, he might be eligible for the Long Service and Good Conduct medal as well, which in those days took 18 years to qualify for provided you did not have a Regimental entry on your conduct sheet, unless someone else knows better.

 

Julian

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Hi Julian,

 

It looks like he was awarded it. From the FMP record there is a column headed "Campaigns, Wounds, Medal or Rewards of any kind" which shows:

 

Brookman1.JPG.69d8727254a5a1bba0d45222b1a0d4cb.JPG
Image source: Findmypast

 

I haven't got a clue what the 2nd line reads as/means though.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit: The reference to the MSM? Part II [2] orders … H&S Batt 4 (dated?) 26.1.19. 

Edited by clk
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I think that is some thing else entirely

 

Top line is MSM on Pt 2 Orders 

2nd line  H & S Batt 4 26 Jan 1919 unless it follows on from Pt 2 Orders which it may

3rd line LSGC which should not have been before 1st Nov 1923 i.e. 18 years after joining

4th line 1914-15 Star

5th line BWM and VM

 

Having looked at both the LLT and SCS pages I cannot see a H&S Bty

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Thanks Julian and Chris for the extra information that is filling my gaps in knowledge - I really appreciate what you have done for me.

 

My knowledge is increasing gradually(but I am still 'green') as I research more. It took me a while  to realise what HAG stood for. Is a Heavy Artillery Group a group of Artillery Brigade units? Understanding the relationship between Divisions, HAGs, Corps is a little confusing.

 

I'm currently reading a book called 'The Story of the Salonica Army' by G Ward Price, which has a 'free link' on the internet (http://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/memoir/Salonica/salon1.htm), to get an idea what the troops on that front went through. 

 

Once again thank you all for your help.

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Andy,

 

This will be a brief explanation but might help.  This is a general explanation and may not always fit the precise circumstances of the campaign.

 

I was told years ago that effectively you cannot directly command more than 8 men at a time effectively.  I will try to illustrate how command works.

 

An infantry section has 8 men under a corporal.  3 infantry sections and a HQ section make up a platoon under a subaltern.  The subaltern does not give detailed orders to the section as in Pte Atkins take cover behind that wall and watch to your right, that is the corporals job.  The subaltern tells the section commander take your section across the stream. The section commander decides how to cross the stream and to deploy his men.  Similarly, the Company commander tells the platoon commander cross the stream occupy the ridge.  He does not tell the platoon commander which section crosses first.  That principle carries on up through battalion to brigade, division, corps and Army.

 

Army units such as a Battalion of infantry, gun battery etc., have a specific task.  That is what they train for, and in general cannot change role easily.  Yes, gunners, sappers etc. can fight as infantry in extremis, but would not be expected to carry out even a company sized attack normally.  All units need support in terms of food, water medical etc.  They have some internal capability, but resupply is controlled higher up the chain to make life easier.  

 

Depending on the likely campaign demands  depends on what combat units and supply units are sent.  To give the officer commanding some flexibility and strength 3 infantry battalions,  a squadron of cavalry, a gun battery, a company of sappers are formed into a brigade.  3 brigades make up a division which will also have additional support troops such as M.T.

 

Two or more divisions make up a Corps, which again has more support troops such as Sappers or Gunners usually pretty much permanently assigned to the corps.  These troops can be moved to a different corps if the situation requires.

 

Likewise an Army comprises two or more corps with a lot more support troops.  It is at this level in Salonika that you get troops such as the Railway Construction and Operating Companies coming into play, as letting the Corps/Divisions command them would not allow the most sensible allocation of resources.

 

You can now see that the Army Commander is not just giving orders to the two Generals commanding the corps, but also has to consider how the supplies are got up, casualties evacuated etc.  He obviously does not give detailed orders to the units concerned as in lay that railway sleeper at place X and another sleeper 3 ft. in front, but says you will build a railway from Stavros to Sarakali and be ready by 1st September.  

 

The fundamental artillery unit is the battery, 3 batteries came under command of a Heavy Artillery Brigade/Group, the term changes with time.  They provide heavy artillery support to the infantry where needed and will not always support the same infantry battalion/brigade/division all the time

 

Hope that all makes sense.

 

Julian

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