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Search for a citation for Imperial Russia Medal of St George 3rd Class


UncleJoe

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My Great Uncle Joseph Fogarty 1763

served with the 2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers. He was listed as missing presumed dead on 8th May 1915 during 2nd Ypres.

The Red Cross archive has him described as a Regimental Scout. The family history is he was a despatch rider and only his bike was found.  

The 84th Brigade HQ war diary for the 8th May says messages were sent by an officer on horseback and motorcyclist. Joseph was awarded the Imperial Russia Medal of St George 3rd Class which appears in the London Gazette. I'm trying to find a citation for the award.

I've read through this 84th Brigade diary for the rest of 1915 on line but haven't been able to get the 2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers war diary online. 

Can anyone point me in the right direction or is a visit to Kew my next step? Sorry for length of post

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Thanks for the reply I've downloaded so time for a cup of coffee. I'm hoping a citation may show if he was with his battalion or attached to the Brigade HQ.

Regards

David

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Have you tried local newspapers ?

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12 hours ago, Coldstreamer said:

Have you tried local newspapers ?

 Thank you I'll try the Irish Times as he was from Dublin

Regards

David

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12 hours ago, Skipman said:

The 2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers diary is online at ancestry.co.uk   Click

 

Mike

Thank you but my attempts with Ancestry failed. I've gone through the National Archive route but there's no citations for British or Foreign awards.

Regards 

David

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Many don't have citations 

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In my experience the 'lower' order Imperial Russian awards gazetted 1915-17 were awarded to men who had been recommended for but not awarded British decorations.

 

Most of the higher order Crosses of St. George were awarded to men who had been awarded the DCM, most of lower order Medals of St. George were awarded to men who were either MID'd or received nothing at all.

 

Leaving this image here as it is a great example of an August 1915 gazetted Cross of St. George IV Class to a British soldier who was awarded the DCM for April 1915.

RAMC gallantry group.jpg

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Thank you for that it makes sense. Possibly the award of the medal of St. George stopped a later award of a Military Medal. There was no mention of the award in the family oral history I'm wondering if they received it or even knew about it. My grandmother was very proud of her brother's story but never mentioned this gallantry medal. I've had no luck with the Brigade or Battalion diaries nor the Irish Times whose Roll of Honour is for officers. 

I need to visit Kew as they have a book

Honour: recipients of foreign awards in the library at nearly 700 pages it may have something. 

Once again thank you for the reply

David

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Something to consider is that most of the Imperial Russian Awards were gazetted in August 1915 when the DCM was the only award available to an NCO or OR, many men recommended for a DCM who did not receive it but would have received the MM a year later were awarded Imperial Russian decorations. I have actually seen correspondence from a cavalryman awarded a Medal of St. George in 1915 as well as a British MID asking why he had not been awarded the DCM he had been recommended for. The short answer is that higher ups decided his act did not warrant the DCM and he was MID'd instead, presumably his name was on a list of soldiers recommended for a DCM but not awarded and when the Imperial Russian government offered an exchange of awards, his name was put up for a Russian gong.

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On 19/03/2019 at 23:20, wrightdw said:

Something to consider is that most of the Imperial Russian Awards were gazetted in August 1915 when the DCM was the only award available to an NCO or OR, many men recommended for a DCM who did not receive it but would have received the MM a year later were awarded Imperial Russian decorations. I have actually seen correspondence from a cavalryman awarded a Medal of St. George in 1915 as well as a British MID asking why he had not been awarded the DCM he had been recommended for. The short answer is that higher ups decided his act did not warrant the DCM and he was MID'd instead, presumably his name was on a list of soldiers recommended for a DCM but not awarded and when the Imperial Russian government offered an exchange of awards, his name was put up for a Russian gong.

Thank you for taking the time to reply every piece of information is helpful. 

My Great Uncle's award was indeed Gazetted in August 1915.

Gazette date 24th August 1915

Issue 29275

Page 8513

Regards

David

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British awards passed up the chain of command, whether or not the soldier who was recommended received the medal depended on many factors beyond the action that merited the award.  

 

Foreign awards, with few exceptions passed down the chain of command so there was much more certainty that the man who was recommended would receive the award.  Occasionally there are entries in the war diaries noticing a request for nominations.

 

On some occasions men who had previously received a British decoration also received a foreign award, e.g. Sgt William Wilcox was awarded a DCM and also appears in the same Gazette as your great-uncle, he was awarded the Cross of the Order of  St George 3rd Class.  His DCM was in the Gazette in April  for an action on 25/1/1915.  The Cross was ranked higher than the medal.

 

The closest you are likely to get to a citation is the preamble to the Supplement entries, i.e. ‘for gallantry and distinguished service in the   field.’  There was a card index to foreign decorations and awards destroyed when the Arnside Street warehouse burned down in 1940.

 

Ken 

 

 

Edited by kenf48
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20 hours ago, kenf48 said:

British awards passed up the chain of command, whether or not the soldier who was recommended received the medal depended on many factors beyond the action that merited the award.  

 

Foreign awards, with few exceptions passed down the chain of command so there was much more certainty that the man who was recommended would receive the award.  Occasionally there are entries in the war diaries noticing a request for nominations.

 

On some occasions men who had previously received a British decoration also received a foreign award, e.g. Sgt William Wilcox was awarded a DCM and also appears in the same Gazette as your great-uncle, he was awarded the Cross of the Order of  St George 3rd Class.  His DCM was in the Gazette in April  for an action on 25/1/1915.  The Cross was ranked higher than the medal.

 

The closest you are likely to get to a citation is the preamble to the Supplement entries, i.e. ‘for gallantry and distinguished service in the   field.’  There was a card index to foreign decorations and awards destroyed when the Arnside Street warehouse burned down in 1940.

 

Ken 

 

 

Thanks for the reply Ken, is there anyway of knowing if the medal was sent to the family? No doubt due to the card index being destroyed it'll be a no.

Regards

David

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18 hours ago, UncleJoe said:

Thanks for the reply Ken, is there anyway of knowing if the medal was sent to the family? No doubt due to the card index being destroyed it'll be a no.

Regards

David

 

I can't help with that. It would have been sent to the next of kin, usually a wife or parent.  The 'war medals' were sent by registered post to the address held by Army Records I'm guessing earlier awards were despatched the same way.  It's unusual in that the only British decorations and awards available at that time which could be awarded posthumously were the VC and a Mention in Despatches.  Given the pace of the fighting some medals were awarded after death in a subsequent action.

 

Ken

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