Great War or WWII - Greatest Scientific and Technology Advancement

[Marilyne]

OK... this is funny....

I just got this from a friend...

claims WWI may have invented the safety brief?????

 

 

Just HAD to post that one here.... don't kill me dead...

 

M.

 

[Interested]

On 08/03/2019 at 15:27, MKC said:

De Mole's invention pre-dates WW1 but just a few years

Maybe not worth accrediting Da Vinci with the invention of the tank, but the concept re-entered in the public domain following H G Wells' story of the "IronClads" published in 1903, well in advance of De Mole's proposal.

[MKC]

Maybe, but more than just a story, De Mole made a working model: a big advance over Da Vinci's drawings and HG Well's story, I think. 

 

Mike

 

 

[Borden Battery]

Hello MikeMeech

 

Interesting points made.  Perhaps we should look for someone to write a short article on this topic in order to bring together elements of a more complete thesis?

 

Borden Battery

 

[Open Bolt]

2 hours ago, Interested said:

De Mole's invention pre-dates WW1 but just a few years

It did, but did not result in an actual tank so that whatever the merits, he belongs in the same category as other imaginative individuals.

28 minutes ago, Borden Battery said:

Perhaps we should look for someone to write a short article on this topic

Yes, I think the original poster might try it?!

[MikeMeech]

On 28/03/2019 at 15:40, Open Bolt said:

It did, but did not result in an actual tank so that whatever the merits, he belongs in the same category as other imaginative individuals.

Yes, I think the original poster might try it?!

 

On 28/03/2019 at 15:11, Borden Battery said:

Hello MikeMeech

 

Interesting points made.  Perhaps we should look for someone to write a short article on this topic in order to bring together elements of a more complete thesis?

 

Borden Battery

 

Hi

 

Well I am gradually building up data on the claims about McNaughton that have been published, however, the original source appears to be quite vague from what I can tell in the sources I have mentioned.  I shall mention Berton's 'Vimy' book, page 116, this states (without reference), reference McNaughton, that:

 

"He was equally impressed by a remarkable trio of scientists whom he persuaded to quit the British and join his staff at Vimy.  These three men- Lawrence Bragg, Charles Darwin, and Lucien Ball - all became life-long associates.  They left the British Army because they were tired of being ignored as dangerous radicals and because they knew that the conditions for their research would be much improved under a man who was himself a scientist  and who rejoiced in an elastic and questioning mind."

 

This does show that Berton had not researched Sound Ranging, Bull was head of the Marey Institute in Paris and remained in the post during the whole war supporting both the British and French, Bragg and Darwin remained in the British Army, the former rising higher at GHQ, Darwin remained commanding his SR Section until the end of 1917 when he was attached to work with the RFC/RAF at Orfordness on Aircraft noise.  The SR Sections had monthly meetings to discuss the techniques, equipment and ideas, many of the attendance lists remain (Chasseaud includes several in his book), by 1918(from a start in 1915) the BEF was employing around 200 scientists and mathematicians in its SR sections (which also deployed to other theatres as well as the Western Front).  I don't know where Berton got this information from or even if he 'made it up'?  However, there are other 'odd' statements in his book that appear to be 'incorrect', this is important as Berton is quoted as a source on many of the websites reference Vimy.  If I now see Berton quoted I try to check out the information.

 

I have had a piece on published on the 'false figures' published on British pilot training deaths which is are often repeated by academic and popular historians, this was in the 'Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research 95' (2017) pages 369-370.  These SR/FS claims around McNaughton appear to have also been repeated by many although again the basis of the claim appears to be 'thin' to say the least!  I suggested if you are interested in the SR/FS systems it would be best to read the books I have mentioned.

 

Mike

 

 

[Borden Battery]

Burton was a gifted and entertaining author who was a successful writer in his day - and championed a number of Canadian stories and events. I have a number of his books and am familiar with his reference in his book "Vimy".

 

However, it is my impression his interest in a "good story" as a former newspaper reporter sometimes "trumped" the true facts.  While not discounting Berton, I would (as you are doing) continue to seek other corroborative evidence on this matter.  At this time it is more important to have a good grasp of the true facts and not an interesting story. 

 

Here is a group of academics and a website which might contain more "peer reviewed" material on the subject.

 

Borden Battery

 

 

*** International Encyclopedia of the First World War – Open Access Research Website

“A Global War – A Global Project "1914-1918-online. International Encyclopedia of the First World War” is an English-language virtual reference work on the First World War. The multi-perspective, open-access knowledge base is the result of an international collaborative project involving more than 1,000 authors, editors, and partners from over fifty countries. More than 1,000 articles will be gradually published. Innovative navigation schemes based on Semantic Media Wiki technology provide nonlinear access to the encyclopedia’s content.  "1914-1918-online" represents a major undertaking in digital history publication under the Open Access paradigm by promoting free and unlimited dissemination of the content to individual users, search engines, and reference services. This availability is complemented by novel navigation schemes that allow the user non-linear access throughout the text via thematic contexts, regional contexts and conceptual encyclopedia entries (e.g. 'Propaganda'). The platform is designed to enable users to follow threads according to their specific interests, integrating a broad range of texts from various contexts. Visualizations of thematic connections encourages the navigation of the encyclopedia in ways that expand on the standards of current digital history publications.”

 

A wide-ranging series of “time-line themes” on the Great War are provided in this one part of the extensive website:  https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/themes/”. Items are too numerous to mention – readers should explore this part of the larger website.  These timeline-themes are further sub-divided into a wide range of topics.

 

The overall index {at time of review) consists of 8,188 items from 1,035 contributors and both will increase in volume on a regular basis. The overall index is cleverly subdivided into three sub-indexes for ease of access; (1) Name Index, (2) Place Index and (3) Subject Index.  An advanced research tool is also provided.

 

The website also provides a comprehensive “Time-Line” for the Great War from this sub-set of the larger website; https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/ww1-timeline/

 

Buried within the general website is a further listing of Great War websites. Many of which are included in the CEF Study Group’s list of Recommended Great War Websites; http://www.1914-1918-online.net/06_WWI_websites/index.html

 

 

This global online encyclopedia on the Great War has every opportunity to become one of the key informational websites on the Great War which will also be peer-reviewed for content and accuracy. [CEF Study Group – Jan 2019]

 

 

Main URL Address:  https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/project/about/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeMeech]

2 hours ago, Borden Battery said:

Burton was a gifted and entertaining author who was a successful writer in his day - and championed a number of Canadian stories and events. I have a number of his books and am familiar with his reference in his book "Vimy".

 

However, it is my impression his interest in a "good story" as a former newspaper reporter sometimes "trumped" the true facts.  While not discounting Berton, I would (as you are doing) continue to seek other corroborative evidence on this matter.  At this time it is more important to have a good grasp of the true facts and not an interesting story. 

 

Here is a group of academics and a website which might contain more "peer reviewed" material on the subject.

 

Borden Battery

 

 

*** International Encyclopedia of the First World War – Open Access Research Website

 

“A Global War – A Global Project "1914-1918-online. International Encyclopedia of the First World War” is an English-language virtual reference work on the First World War. The multi-perspective, open-access knowledge base is the result of an international collaborative project involving more than 1,000 authors, editors, and partners from over fifty countries. More than 1,000 articles will be gradually published. Innovative navigation schemes based on Semantic Media Wiki technology provide nonlinear access to the encyclopedia’s content.  "1914-1918-online" represents a major undertaking in digital history publication under the Open Access paradigm by promoting free and unlimited dissemination of the content to individual users, search engines, and reference services. This availability is complemented by novel navigation schemes that allow the user non-linear access throughout the text via thematic contexts, regional contexts and conceptual encyclopedia entries (e.g. 'Propaganda'). The platform is designed to enable users to follow threads according to their specific interests, integrating a broad range of texts from various contexts. Visualizations of thematic connections encourages the navigation of the encyclopedia in ways that expand on the standards of current digital history publications.”

 

 

 

A wide-ranging series of “time-line themes” on the Great War are provided in this one part of the extensive website:  https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/themes/”. Items are too numerous to mention – readers should explore this part of the larger website.  These timeline-themes are further sub-divided into a wide range of topics.

 

 

 

The overall index {at time of review) consists of 8,188 items from 1,035 contributors and both will increase in volume on a regular basis. The overall index is cleverly subdivided into three sub-indexes for ease of access; (1) Name Index, (2) Place Index and (3) Subject Index.  An advanced research tool is also provided.

 

 

 

The website also provides a comprehensive “Time-Line” for the Great War from this sub-set of the larger website; https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/ww1-timeline/

 

 

 

Buried within the general website is a further listing of Great War websites. Many of which are included in the CEF Study Group’s list of Recommended Great War Websites; http://www.1914-1918-online.net/06_WWI_websites/index.html

 

 

 

 

 

This global online encyclopedia on the Great War has every opportunity to become one of the key informational websites on the Great War which will also be peer-reviewed for content and accuracy. [CEF Study Group – Jan 2019]

 

 

 

 

 

Main URL Address:  https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/project/about/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi

 

Thanks for the link, it does contain much information for a general look at the war as a whole and various aspects of it.  On viewing some of the articles they are, as is said, Encyclopedia articles, therefore they are lacking in the depth and detail required for looking for the 'accuracy' of statements that appear in some publications and websites.  Otherwise it is a useful resource.

 

Thank you

 

Mike

[Borden Battery]

There are currently over 1,000 articles from about 50 plus countries. Most authors are professors of military history - I believe the articles are peer reviewed as well.  Several Canadian military history professors whom I exchange information with are contributors.  Over time, this website will begin to replace websites such as Wikipedia. 

 

British authors include the likes of Sheffield and Strachan - so, there are some serious contributors.

 

Borden Battery

[MikeMeech]

On 01/04/2019 at 00:43, Borden Battery said:

There are currently over 1,000 articles from about 50 plus countries. Most authors are professors of military history - I believe the articles are peer reviewed as well.  Several Canadian military history professors whom I exchange information with are contributors.  Over time, this website will begin to replace websites such as Wikipedia. 

 

British authors include the likes of Sheffield and Strachan - so, there are some serious contributors.

 

Borden Battery

 

 

Hi

On McNaughton and SR/FS Chasseaud, page 270 makes this statement:

 

"McNaughton's technical qualifications from McGill University made him sympathetic to the efforts of the FSCs and the more enlightened artillery officers.  He was able to understand the possibilities and limitations of sound-ranging and flash-spotting.  Much nonsense has been written about McNaughton's fostering of sound-ranging..  The truth is that 'Y' and 'V' Sections had already been in position facing Vimy Ridge for months before the Canadian Corps took over the sector, and 'L' Section arrived about the same time as the Canadians.  These sections had been trained by Bragg at La Clytte and Kemmel, and were equipped with the new Tucker microphone.  McNaughton therefore was able to take advantage of a system both sound-ranging and flash-spotting, which was mostly already in place and functioning well.  His contribution, like many other CBSOs, was to understand its possibilities, encourage it, and use its results intelligently."

 

This is a very well referenced book and prior to the above he has included the text of McNaughton's  post battle report on SR/FS ('Notes on Counter Battery Work in connection with the capture of Vimy Ridge by Canadian Corps, April 9th 1917'  Canadian Corps War Diary, PRO WO 95 1059).

 

What we do know if we look at the development of SR/FS is:

1. Bragg and Darwin were not civilians at the time of Vimy, they had both been serving from the start of the war and been concerned with SR from 1915.

2. Bragg and Darwin did not leave the British to work as part of McNaughton's 'team', they had BEF positions throughout Vimy/Arras and 1917.

3. BEF GHQ and the 'British' had not 'ignored' SR/FS up to Vimy, they had been expanding and improving the system (and continued to do so to the end of the war).

 

Maybe any book, essay or website that includes the above, for example, should be treated with some caution, no matter the 'status' of a particular author, 'Trust but verify' might be a useful concept.

 

Mike

[jonbem]

On 08/03/2019 at 15:08, Borden Battery said:

Here is an interesting 1918 patent which had major implications for the Second World War.  Borden Battery

Dr. Arthur Scherbius

 

“A German electrical engineer who patented an invention for a mechanical cipher machine, later sold as the Enigma machine. He was born in Frankfurt am Main and studied electricity at the Technical College in Munich, and then went on to study at the Technical College in Hanover, finishing in March 1903. The next year, he completed a dissertation titled, "Proposal for the Construction of an Indirect Water Turbine Governor", and was awarded a Doctorate in engineering (Dr.-Ing.). He subsequently worked for a number of electrical firms in Germany and Switzerland. In 1918, he founded the firm of Scherbius & Ritter. He made a number of inventions, e.g. asynchronous motors, electric pillows and ceramic heating parts; his research contributions led to his name being associated with the Scherbius principle for asynchrous motors. He applied for a patent (filed 23 February 1918) for a cipher machine based on rotating wired wheels, what is now known as a rotor machine. His company also purchased the rights to another patent for a rotor machine from Hugo Koch—patented in 1919. Business was slow enough that the firm was reorganized at least twice in the 1920s. The firm's cipher machine, marketed under the name "Enigma", was initially pitched at the commercial market. There were several commercial models, and one of them was adopted by the German Navy (in a modified version) in 1926. The German Army adopted the same machine (also in a modified version somewhat different from the Navy's) a few years later. He saw none of this as he was killed in a horse carriage accident in 1929. In “Turing’s Cathedral” by George Dyson it is noted that “…a cryptographic machine had been invented by the German electrical engineer Arthur Scherbius, who proposed it to the German navy, an offer that was declined. Scherbius then founded the Chiffriermaschinen Aktiengesellschaft to manufacture the machine, under the brand name Enigma, for enciphering commercial communications, such as transfers between banks. The German navy changed its mind and adopted a modified version of the Enigma machine in 1926, followed by the German army in 1928, and the German air force in 1935.”

 

https://www.ithistory.org/honor-roll/dr-arthur-scherbius

 

I know many of the pals have a wide and diverse interest in many things, but if you are interested in Enigma there is a lecture/talk in London next month

see

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/05/13/reg_lecture_enigmas_invisible_heroes/

 

[Muerrisch]

Turing

Wins

£50 note.

[michaeldr]

On 08/03/2019 at 15:08, Borden Battery said:

Here is an interesting 1918 patent which had major implications for the Second World War.  Borden Battery

Dr. Arthur Scherbius

“A German electrical engineer who patented an invention for a mechanical cipher machine, later sold as the Enigma machine. He was born in Frankfurt am Main and studied electricity at the Technical College in Munich, and then went on to study at the Technical College in Hanover, finishing in March 1903. The next year, he completed a dissertation titled, "Proposal for the Construction of an Indirect Water Turbine Governor", and was awarded a Doctorate in engineering (Dr.-Ing.). He subsequently worked for a number of electrical firms in Germany and Switzerland. In 1918, he founded the firm of Scherbius & Ritter. He made a number of inventions, e.g. asynchronous motors, electric pillows and ceramic heating parts; his research contributions led to his name being associated with the Scherbius principle for asynchrous motors. He applied for a patent (filed 23 February 1918) for a cipher machine based on rotating wired wheels, what is now known as a rotor machine. His company also purchased the rights to another patent for a rotor machine from Hugo Koch—patented in 1919. Business was slow enough that the firm was reorganized at least twice in the 1920s. The firm's cipher machine, marketed under the name "Enigma", was initially pitched at the commercial market. There were several commercial models, and one of them was adopted by the German Navy (in a modified version) in 1926. The German Army adopted the same machine (also in a modified version somewhat different from the Navy's) a few years later. He saw none of this as he was killed in a horse carriage accident in 1929. In “Turing’s Cathedral” by George Dyson it is noted that “…a cryptographic machine had been invented by the German electrical engineer Arthur Scherbius, who proposed it to the German navy, an offer that was declined. Scherbius then founded the Chiffriermaschinen Aktiengesellschaft to manufacture the machine, under the brand name Enigma, for enciphering commercial communications, such as transfers between banks. The German navy changed its mind and adopted a modified version of the Enigma machine in 1926, followed by the German army in 1928, and the German air force in 1935.”

https://www.ithistory.org/honor-roll/dr-arthur-scherbius

An interesting follow-on to the above appears in a letter in today's newspaper - see https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/20/the-pole-who-first-cracked-the-enigma-code

[Chasemuseum]

Comparing technology leaps during each of the World Wars is a very subjective exercise. 

Wireless was a functional communications tool for telegraphic (morse) communication prior to WW1, but the multiple developments during WW1; -hard valves, -valve manufacture technology, -dramatic improvements in the manufacture of capacitors (Leydon Jar anyone?), -wireless telephony, provided a critical leap to make public radio broadcasting a reality a few years after the war (first broadcasts 1920, BBC 1922). Radio advances during WW2 were also dramatic and instrumental in making TV a reality. In this field I favour the Great War as the greatest leap.

As for Enigma, the history has always been a bit dodgy. The British Government would have preferred never to release any detail but was forced into it. About 1974, the BBC released a TV series on WW2 called the Secret War. A great series. The last episode was called "Still Secret" and gave extensive information on Enigma and Fish. And how the intercepts were analyzed for both immediate and long-term security breaches of German military information. This program gave the Poles extensive credit for obtaining examples of the early diplomatic enigma machines and the development of the "bombe" mechanical/electric computers to break Enigma. This leading into the building of the "Colossus" valve computer to break Fish, with the 8-bit digital paper tape and optical reader. This all becoming the basis of ASCI code (8-bits to 1-byte) and the electronic computer. Subsequently, the "space race" in the cold war, saw the development of the solid-state integrated circuit - the microchip. So, for code & cypher WW2 and the Cold War are much more important than the Great War, with it being an interesting argument as to which of these saw a greater advance.