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Remembered Today:

Herbert Sullivan, Norfolk Rgt, Rifle Brigade


Mark Crame

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Hi all,

 

Hoping to enlist your help please! My uncle has just asked for my assistance with his grandfather's military service. Nothing showing up other than the medal index card (below). If i'm reading this right it'd point to his being a  pre-war regular, joining the Norfolk Regiment in the winter of 1885/6 then re-enlisting during WW1? That'd make him fairly old by then presumably (awaiting further details of him from my uncle which I will add). Any ideas on dates, battalions, etc? Herbert was apparently posted to  India (via Egypt) from October 1918 to October 1919, again, I'll add more details as I get them.

 

Many thanks in advance!

 

regards

 

Mark. 

 

 

 

Medal card of Sullivan, Herbert
Corps Regiment No Rank
Norfolk Regiment 1531 Private
Norfolk Regiment 242513 Private
Rifle Brigade 212164 Private

image1.jpeg

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Update.

 

The pre-war enlistment date can't be right as Herbert wasn't born until 15 December 1892, in Norwich. He married Florence Dove in 2nd Qtr 1915 and had a son, Hector, on 1st August.

 

 

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Medal Roll is useful shows served

France/Flanders 27/7/16 to 14/9/16 6th Battalion Norfolks

Egypt 1/3/17 to 15/10/17 5th Battalion Norfolks

Egypt 16/10/17 to 18/9/18 21st Battalion Rifle Brigade 

India .1/10/18 to 25/10/19 .21st Battalion Rifle Brigade

So entitled to British War and Victory Medal Pair.

no sign of any surviving service papers unfortunately.

Edited by Mark1959
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Hi Mark,

 

12 hours ago, Mark Crame said:

The pre-war enlistment date can't be right as Herbert wasn't born until 15 December 1892

 

Taking his 4 digit number as being his 5/Norfolk number, the are some papers for a 1538 Bridges which show that he enlisted on 16.11.1911; and a 1517 Cox who enlisted on 1.11.1911.

 

Edit: If it's a 6/Norfolk number, 1530 Easton attested 9.10.1914, and 1536 Chaston on 10.10.1914

 

Regards

Chris

Edited by clk
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12 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

Medal Roll is useful shows served

France/Flanders 27/7/16 to 14/9/16 6th Battalion Norfolks

Egypt 1/3/17 to 15/10/17 5th Battalion Norfolks

 

1531 could have been his 6th Battalion number and even that could have been 1st/6th or 2nd/6th. Neither unit served outside the UK but large drafts were sent to France - I believe many of them ended up with the 1st Battalion. They seemed to have retained their Territorial Force service numbers rather than being renumbered into a regular army series.

 

Edit - the 1st Battalion took casualties on the 27th July 1916 in taking the village of Longueval and then up until their relief on the 1st August. The August War Diary includes notes that on:-

4th -  Draft of 19 arrived

8th - Draft of 50 arrived

10th - Draft of 150 arrived

12th - Draft of 97 arrived

15th - Draft of 4 arrived

20th - Draft of 100 arrived

 

Some of these drafted men either died or succumbed to wounds as a result of the actions around Falfemont Farm on the 4th / 5th September 1916. According to the Regimental casualty book 56 all ranks were killed, 219 wounded and 94 missing, believed killed, a total of 369. Herbert may have been one of the wounded who was subsequently shipped back to the UK on the 14th September.

 

If he then recovered and made it to Egypt in March 1917 he would have been renumbered into the six digit 24**** range if he served with the 5th Battalion. Presumably the same clerical error that had him with the 6th Battalion in France also missed that one. He would probably have been with them for the defeats of First Gaza and the losses of Second Gaza that forced the 1st/5th and 1st/4th to amalgamate for a while but left before the success of 3rd Gaza and the capture of Jerusalem.

 

12 hours ago, Mark Crame said:

The pre-war enlistment date can't be right as Herbert wasn't born until 15 December 1892, in Norwich. He married Florence Dove in 2nd Qtr 1915 and had a son, Hector, on 1st August. 

 

The marriage certificate and the birth certificate for his son should give Herbert's rank and unit. You may also find it gives his service number, which would help tie in with the MiC. I see the birth of Hector was registered in the Aylsham District. Does the birth of an Arthur Sullivan, mothers maiden name Dove, registered in the Aylsham District in Q2 of 1919 also relate? Again the birth certificate may give you some more information about rank and unit of father.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited by PRC
1) Add details from the War Diary 2) Typos
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Fantastic work gentlemen! My apologies for the delay, I am working nights  and have been asleep...

 

That's really thorough work by all of you, thank you! I'll ask about the birth certificates. 

 

As for Arthur...yes, he relates. Quite how we do not know for certain as his existence has only just come to light. He was born 25th April 1919, adopted shortly thereafter, and Herbert is listed as his father on the birth certificate. Quite the gestation period.

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So...the birth certificate has come through. He is recorded as Private, 21st Midland Rifle Brigade. Can't make out what it says underneath but possibly Boot Finisher? This could tie in with one of the main industries in Norwich at the time and could be his previous occupation but is this something that would normally be included? 

2019-03-05-0002.jpg

2019-03-05-0002a.jpg

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21st Midland Rifle Brigade is the same as the 21st Battalion Rifle Brigade. The LLT has this to say.

 

18th (London); 19th (Western), 20th (Northern), 21st (Midland), 22nd (Wessex & Welsh), 23rd (North Western) and 24th (Home Counties) Battalions
Formed in accordance with an Army Council Instruction on 29 November 1915. The Bns were made up of supernumerary TF Companies, formed from National Reservists who were used for guarding vulnerable points in Great Britain. The Bns were posted for Garrison duty overseas in 1916. The 18th, 23rd and 24th went to India; 19th and 20th to Egypt. The 21st went to India via Egypt, and the 22nd Salonika via Egypt.

Source: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-rifle-brigade-1914-1918/

 

I see the baby was born at Marsham but the mother was normally resident in Norwich. Presumably she was staying with relatives or friends to have the child. Bit of an odd address the mother gives - 10 Cherry Lane, St Georges Street. Going back to Herbert, he was recorded on the 1911 Census living in his parents household at 100 Calvert Street, Norwich. That Street runs roughly north-south. At the city south end is St Georges Street. At the north county end was Cherry Lane. Of course there could have been a second Cherry Lane - this whole area was a mass of courtyards and narrow alleys that have in the main been replaced either as a result of German bombing or even more mindlessly - sixties town planners!

 

The whole north side of the old city inside the city wall was a mainstay of the city shoe trade. Many were like Herberts' step father, Robert George Clarke, shown on the 1911 Census as a Shoe Finisher who was a "worker" and who worked "at home". The reality is that he was the mainstay of the shoe industry - an outworker paid by the piece. That reality meant massive insecurity for the family, long hours and even potentially backhanders to the supervisors who decided who got work and who didn't on a daily basis. It could have meant his step-son would go on to work as a Boot Finisher - many families used the children to supplement the fathers work so Herbert probably acquired all the necessary skills growing up.

 

If they were living in Norwich Herbert will probably turn up on the Absent Voter Lists for 1918 & 1919. There is a copy held in the Local Studies section at the Forum as well as in the County Archive at County Hall.

 

Both the County Picture Archive and the George Plunkett Collection have many contemporary pictures of the area.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

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Thank you so much for this Peter! Yes, it helps massively, it's fascinating to boot. John Stark (in my signature) was also a relative involved in the shoe trade in Norwich. His hoe is long gone though we found his and his wife's grave a few years back (I wore his pocket watch on my wedding day, possibly the only thing of value he owned my dad said). His mother (and a sister) were o n Knowlesley Road when my grandfather was born, 14/08/14, the day his father left the Curragh for france with 16th Lancers so this all adds to the Stark and Crame sides as well as the Sullivan connection for my uncle.

 

Now, my Great Grandfather was wounded 1914 on the Aisne, repatriated and after his recovery went to work as a chauffeur (his wife went into service there in Service) at Ripon Hall Cottages for Major Marsham...I'm unaware of a family link that far back but a feeling of 'small world' certainly applies. Especially as one of my uncle's half cousins (as we now strongly feel they are) live about a mile from me apparently. 

 

Anyway, nothing I have to offer currently is solid so once again, from my uncle and myself, a massive thank you for all your efforts to help. It is really appreciated greatly!

 

regards

 

Mark and Martin

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21st Rifle Brigade

After training at Halton sailed in H. M. T. Corsican and disembarked on 14th January 1916 at Alexandria, where they entrained for Sidi Bishr.  Five days later they moved to relieve the Finsbury Rifles at Hosh-Issa, where they built huts and trenches and an open range. Here they remained training until July, when they moved to Cairo and were quartered at Abbassia Brracks. Their commander was Colonel H. G. Sutton, a retired Indian Army Officer.

During this period they found several detachments; a Company in the cotton factory at Damanhour, often visited by the R.N.A.M.C.D., presumably naval armoured cars, under Commander Lister. Another detachment provided despatch riders and telephone operators at Alexandria Base Post Office.

A third party of three officers and one hundred men under Captain Aldridge manned Number 3 Armoured Train with three cars, a searchlight, two one pounder pom poms and two Maxims, during July and August 1916 in the neighbourhood of Romani, east of the Canal. Their duties and training continued unchanged until May 1917 when they moved to Alexandria; in April 1918 their Ross Rifles were replaced by Lee-Enfield Mark 1's.

The embarkation of the troops for France in that month seemed to have caused some excitement, and the Company at the docks turned out on one occasion to cope with some troops to whom natives had sold liquor which disagreed with them. In May 1918 they were back at Cairo, relieving the 1st Garrison Battalion Royal Irish Regiment, and in September of that year they sailed from Port Tewfik in H.M.T. Palamcotta touching Aden on 24th September. Here their diary ceases, leaving us to wonder, perhaps as much as the Battalion itself, what their destination was to be.

Their fate was not, however, an exciting one, for on 15th October 1918 they arrived at Fyzabad for Internal Security duties.

During March 1919 they lost a large number of men returning to the coalfields, and in April of that year they moved to Madras with a detachment at Calicut. On 12th October they moved to Deolali, and by 30th November were reduced to eighty-three ranks.

The cadre embarked in S.S. Macedonia, arriving in Southampton on 26th December 1919, and was finally demobilised two months later on 26th February 1920.

 

These men had nothing to do with the Rifle Brigade, but given permission to wear the Regimental badge in December 1915. They were managed by the London Territorial Association with no officers or men from The Rifle Brigade placed in them. The only Regiments at the time with no territorial battalions, were the Guards, K.R.R.C. and Rifle Brigade. The director of personnel services decided they should be put under the Rifle Brigade banner.

 

Andy

Edited by stiletto_33853
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Wow, thank you Andy! More cracking info. Quite an intriguing tale of odd jobs and to-and-fro movement. Quite like the description of drunkenness too :-)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi chaps, my uncle sent me the following earlier and I was wondering if you might be able to offer some thoughts on the matter please?

I visited the Forum again today, just to recheck more carefully the Norwich Absentee Voters Lists.
1918 – not available (Believed lost in fire)
1919 – available bound book – no record for Herbert Sullivan
1920 – Spring and Autumn – both loosely bound in paper cover
And in both of these  Herbert Sullivan address is given as 10  Cherry Lane Norwich (212167 Rfn. 21st Mid. Rifle Brg.)

As this leads to another question, would you please post something like this on the forum? Would it have been possible that even if Herbert’s regiment was posted abroad, as outlined in previous posts, that he only joined his regiment overseas in 1920? What might he have been doing during this time? (If you follow my thinking if he was not on the Absentee list until 1920, he could well have been the father of Albert Jack!) Thanks again.

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Hi Mark,

I do not think so. Most of these men were of an advanced age or medically unfit to serve elsewhere. These battalions were regularly visited to weed out any that were considered fit enough for other duties. The 21st RB story and Mark's post 3 give the details and dates of his service overseas, which ties in date wise with the absent voters list.

Most, from how little I have delved into these men, were discharged immediately on return. He was overseas from July 16 for a couple of months in France before being shipped out to Egypt on. It would be interesting to know what he did from 14/9/16 until he went to the 5th Norfolk's in Egypt on 1/3/17. From the little that I have looked at these men there were a good few considered unfit or unsuitable for the Western Front. Some of them, due to age were discharged as unlikely to survive an Egyptian/Indian climate.

 

Andy

Edited by stiletto_33853
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