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trajan

Unit-marked for 6 North Lancs P.1907?

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trajan

I know, a challenge, but a local dealer is offering me this on a 1/12 P.1907, and I DON'T want to ask him to clean it as that would probably mean the grinder...

 

So, a "6.N.?" Could be 6.N.Staffs, could be 6.(Loyal) North Lancs... Does somebody else have a similar marking that I can compare this with?

 

 

0.jpg

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JMB1943

Trajan,

 

The 1912 Armourers' Instructions gives "N. L. " for Loyal North Lancs, but difficult to tell from photo whether that "L" is there!

 

Regards,

JMB

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trajan
Posted (edited)

Thanks JMB - there are vertical strokes, but no sign of a following STF which would be needed for armourers instructions for N.Staffs... What do you reckon? I won't hold you too it!

Edited by trajan
Expansion

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JMB1943

Trajan,

 

Here are the possible contenders from the Instructions....

 

N. F.   Northumberland Fusiliers

NK.    Norfolk Regt

NN.    Northamptonshire Regt

 

Was a N. Staffs Regt formed during the war?; 1912 Instructions, reprinted in 1916 with amendments does not list such...

 

Since you have "N." with the period, you probably have a choice of N.L or N.F. ........50/50..... go for it !!!!

 

Regards,

JMB

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Dave66

From what I can see I'd tend to go with the previous suggestion on the other thread of F...6th Northumberland Fusiliers. Terribly hard to identify some due to the wear and pitting.

Dave.

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trajan

Well, I decided to go for it... So as not to influence any interpretations, not only is it being offered in Turkey in a rather ropey state, but it is a HQ, which is why I was thinking of Loyal North Lancs... I'll get some better photographs up after it arrives, but to be going on with - 

 

 

 

 

0.jpg

01.jpg

02.jpg

03.jpg

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depaor01

A nice 'sleeper' Trajan. Enjoy. Do I see blueing on the blade?

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trajan

Cheers, and thanks! Looks to be patina all the way through.

 

My natural thought is that having been bought in Turkey then, although some will quite reasonaly disagree, it is a ww1 booty bayonet for a unit at Gallipoli or in the the mid-east, and so it may well have been hanging around in Turkey since 1915-1918, and if so from Gallipoli (if Loyal North Lancs).

 

However, I have bought from the same seller an RAF marked bayonet, and so that is post Gallipoli... And I have some Swedish M.1896 bought here, a bayonet never used (to the best of my knowledge) by the Turkish army, So provenenance of purchase has no direct bearing on provenance of use... 

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Dave66

Nice piece Trajan, I'm sure when you have it in hand it will be easier to determine that unit marking a little better than a photo...would make sense given the Gallipoli connection if it were the 6th north lancs. either way, a worthy, "been there", addition to any collection.

 

Dave.

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RGJDEE

Here’s  a P1907 with similar marks

I couldn’t decide on Loyal Nth Lancs or Northumberland Fusiliers

????????

R.

F58E30F7-D16A-438F-B8D0-23BE0551802D.png

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4thGordons

Based on the above image I can only see 5 NF

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trajan

RGDEE, same opinon here as 4G. There is an 'F' there.

 

My 6.N should arrive Tuesday / Wednesday and then has to be smuggled back home :ph34r: My treat to myself for having recently had two articles accepted for publication this year, but SWMBO will not necessarily see it the same way!:unsure: Just hope that I don't see a nice desireable German Imperial tomorrow at the Antika Pazari!

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RGJDEE

Thankyou. Gentlemen, Being as I’m in Newcastle, I’d leaned towards Northumberland Fusiliers

😀, thanks for confirming my theory.

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trajan

Well, the Ankara example of a HQ P.1907 arrived and like the RAF has been one safely smuggled in :ph34r: but it will have to wait until the weekend probably for photographs. It has ceretainly 'been in the wars' with the bottom of the right grip shaved down and the pommel battered all over as well as painted gold at some point, grip screws and press-stud rusted in place, but the blade is ok with a black patina.

 

So, what else, to be going on with - 

 

There is an upright after the "N", so 6.N.L., 6.N.F., etc. No way of working out the number underneath!

 

Right ricasso - crowned Enfield inspector marks including a 35/E,  55/E, and a ???

 

Left ricasso - the usual: a very faint crown, a clear 1907, very very faint cypher, dated '1 12', no trace of EFD stamp...

 

Interestingly the scabbard is one of those late ones - a round stud, and pinched-in sides on the locket, no rivets. Fortunately I have two spare tear-drops to replace that with.

 

I was a tad concerned the HQ here might have been faked as there is a line on the left side of the quillon where a hook might have been added... So I passed it to my archaeometallurgist colleague - ok he is a bronze age dagger, etc., specialist, but even so...!!! He gave it a going over with a high-powered microscope and confirmed that there are no lines anywhere else to indicate a welding job and the corrison pattern is consistent throughout.

 

One last thing, no I don't collect P.1907's... In fact I have sold-on several I acquired in my early collecting days including two or three HQ's... But somehow when a unit-marked HQ turns up here in Turkey, well...! So, I now have 5 or so of the things - will have to count when SWMBO is not around...:thumbsup:

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JMB1943
Posted (edited)

Trajan,

 

From those inspection stamps, I would again suggest EFD or possibly JAC (definitely not  MOLE, SAND, WILK).

Did you have the arch—-(wot you sed) use his ‘scope on the NF/ NL conundrum?

 

I suspect that SWMBO recognizes very well the implications of you digging out camera, never mind the eyes in the back of her head!

 

Regards,

JMB

Edited by JMB1943
Typo

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trajan

Thanks JMB. Depending on how the weekend goes I will have a try and cleaning some of the grime of this one before photographing it - but yes, eyes in the back of the head do apply! My colleague would not commit himself on the marking as there are so many other slashes in the area, so I'll see what comes up. I have seen some battered pommels in my time but this one takes the biscuit!

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trajan

My "research" day and bright sun on the balcony (if only 3 degrees!) so I sloped off for lunch and took some quick photographs of this baby. Make what you will - but note how battered that pommel is, yet there is an upright after the "N"; also the shaved-off lower edge to the right grip; the scabbard locket of the 'pinched-in' variety; and the scabbard and blade condition.

 

 

6.N.05.jpg

6.N.04.jpg

6.N.03.jpg

6.N.02.jpg

6.N.01.jpg

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