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PAC

Cap Badge Identification

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JulianR
6 hours ago, PRC said:

Again I can't see any Baker's with a MiC that shows them serving with the Lincolnshire Regiment and the Military Police. Possibly one worth a look was a Lance Corporal P/1371 Albert S Baker who enlisted 1st June 1915 and who was discharged on the 30th April 1918 according to his Silver War Badge MiC. Reason given for discharge is AO 265/17 Sec. B. which is one I don't recognise. Just to mix things up, the National Archive has a second MiC for that service number in the name of an A S Baker which has him landing in France on the 19th June 1915 and being discharged "M.U. 30.4.18".

  

AO 265/17 is probably Army Order 265 of 1917 and M.U. 30/4/1918 is probably medically unfit.

Julian

6 hours ago, PRC said:

 

 

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PAC

Morning Chaps and thanks for your efforts with this as it’s all exciting stuff! For my part I’ve firstly been following up the excellent identification of the military police cap badge. This has brought forth from an Auntie that the soldier in the photograph could be my grandmother Mabel’s brother Ernie Head. So onwards and upwards!

regards

Paul

 

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The Inspector
Posted (edited)

Hi Paul

Ernest Frank Head  (1911 Earnest) born, 1900 ( 17.4.1900 d.Sept. 1969  Poole, Dorset, 7c,239) married Mabel Alice Tuffin, 5a,591, Shaftesbury, Dorset. (?? b.19.12.1899), 22.12.1923, Fontmell, Doset, UK. 1939 register at 20 Forest View Road, Bournemouth. He is a Meat Pie Baker!   Mary  A Head, b.21.5.1861, a widow also present. In 1963 Ernest is a dEspatch Clerk on the probate register for his brother Frederick Charles (b. 20.9.1891) who died 5.1.1963. Also listed is another brother Albert William, retired road sweeper. Albert was Pte 172586 Labour Corps, records on Ancestry. Albert William died  25th March, 1964, 78 Evelyn Road, Bournemouth as per Service records, probate to Ernest Frank Head, dispatch clerk. 1939 Register Albert William living (b. 16.11.1884) with his married sister Elsie May (Levell) b.16.7.1889. @ No. 78 Evelyn Rd. 

Earnest is one of 7 children to Henry William, bricklayer, 53 yrs( ???10.3.1858, Mollington, Oxfordshire) and Mary Ann, 50 yrs, listed on 1911 census, incorrectly completed with 4 who have married and not at that address. 27 Nursey Road, Moordown ,Hants. 1901 census checks out with the deleted children on 1911 all present at Keepers Cottage, Haddon Hill, Holdenhurst, Southampton. HOWEVER>>>>>

1901 census William Head is the husband of Mary Ann shown as 28yrs. CAN'T BE she is 38, 28yrs on 1891 census, age has been crossed through on 1901. William is a Gamekeeper born Yorkshire.

According to a tree on Ancestry:-

Mary Ann Vincent Toomer b. 1861, Winterborne Anderson, Dorset- d.14.5.1933 Swindon, Wilts is Henry William's wife BUT that does not concur with the 1939 register!

Looking for more on Ernest..

Regards Barry

Edited by The Inspector

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PAC

Thank you Barry, some extra previously unknown (to me) information here and lots of coincidents which I will share with my mum. The search continues!

regards

paul

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PRC
45 minutes ago, The Inspector said:

Hi Paul

Ernest Frank Head  (1911 Earnest) born, 1900 ( 17.4.1900 d.Sept. 1969  Poole, Dorset, 7c,239)

 

So he wouldn't have been called up until April 1918 and the earliest he should have gone overseas is September 1918. Must be a strong possibility that if didn't go overseas at all or at least until after the war was over - hence no likely MiC.

 

If the first picture was Ernest Head then presumably the second picture of the man tentatively identified from the hospital picture on the grounds of facial similarity was another member of the Head family rather than Ernest Sidney Warn \ Baker?

 

regards,

Peter

 

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PRC
4 hours ago, JulianR said:

AO 265/17 is probably Army Order 265 of 1917 and M.U. 30/4/1918 is probably medically unfit.

 

Julian

 

 Agreed - just seemed odd he wasn't discharged under the more standard Kings Regs,

 

Cheers,

Peter

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PAC

Hi Peter, re: photographs; I originally commenced my research with 3 possible photos of my grandfather.  The most likely to be Sidney according to Mum phot was discounted following a visit to the Winchester Hampshire Regiment Museum, as their records revealed it was more likely to be Sidney's brother Charles Warne! I've attached this phot as might be of interest to others.  It's now likely that the Military Police soldier is not him either.  So, I remain hopeful that Sidney Warn/Baker is in the wounded hospital phot as this links to anecdotal evidence of his time wounded in France (until proven otherwise).  After my military police research I intend to pick-up the Lincolnshire Regiment cap badge trail.....

regards

Paul

 

Charles Warne Hampshire regiment copy - Copy.JPEG

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)

Now in that latest photo the cap badge looks like 7th (TF) Hampshire’s to me, with the ‘dog gauge’ centre relating to the New Forest.

ECF610A5-E0E3-4FED-ADCC-B0E6F02CD367.jpeg

C0CDEC28-5877-47A9-AC8B-C1DD2E2FCE8D.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE

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max7474

I would agree that it's the Territorial Force 7th Hampshire Regiment.

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PAC

Thanks chaps and yes 7th Hampshire Regiment was confirmed at their museum.  

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BullerTurner

That sphinx, I can't be sure from that picture and with my eyesight, but might it not be LINCOLNS but GLOSTERS?  I'm only offering a suggestion...not committed to dying in a ditch over it!

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FROGSMILE

For what it’s worth I think that the soldier seated fourth from left in the group photo with nurses is indeed from the Lincolnshire Regiment.

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PAC

So Lincolnshire regiment it is, thank you. Off to investigate the Mounted Police Museum first; it’s nearer 😂

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PAC

Hi all and contact with the Royal Military Police museum has confirmed that the chap with the part cap badge is indeed Lance Corporal E. F. Head. Army No P17318 of the Military Foot Police, who transferred from the Middlesex Regiment No 105107 on 2nd July 1919.  Thanks again for your invaluable assistance. 

 

So one down and to return to the trail of finding Sidney/Albert     Warn(e)/Baker war records continues! 

Btw can anyone expand as to how a chap from Dorset finds himself in a Middlesex regiment?

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PRC
Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, PAC said:

Hi all and contact with the Royal Military Police museum has confirmed that the chap with the part cap badge is indeed Lance Corporal E. F. Head. Army No P17318 of the Military Foot Police, who transferred from the Middlesex Regiment No 105107 on 2nd July 1919.  Thanks again for your invaluable assistance. 

 

So one down and to return to the trail of finding Sidney/Albert     Warn(e)/Baker war records continues! 

Btw can anyone expand as to how a chap from Dorset finds himself in a Middlesex regiment?

 

So the transfer in July 1919 explains why he wasn't coming up on a MiC search in connection with the MFP \ MMP.

 

A quck look at the MiCs for nearby Middlesex Service numbers brings up one for Private G/105102 Stanley Madder, Middlesex Regiment Depot. This shows that he was issued with the Silver War Badge and discharged under Kings Regs as no longer physically fit for service. Most importantly it gives his date of enlistment as the 16th August 1918 and he never made it overseas.

 

There is also one for an F B P Woollard 105104. His MiC is noted that he didn't go to France until the 28th February 1919 and so was ineligible for any award of medals.

 

Given that likely date of enlistment your relative could have been sent anywhere for his training even if he joined an infantry unit rather than one of the specialist or support units.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
On 05/03/2019 at 11:44, PAC said:

 

Btw can anyone expand as to how a chap from Dorset finds himself in a Middlesex regiment?

 

Once conscription began in 1916 a ruthless pragmatism increasingly ruled.  The infantry were always needing men due to attritional casualty rates and unless a fellow had special skills, or a tie to a particular regiment through family history/association, then he was very likely to be earmarked initially as a generic infantryman.  Although he might initially be badged to a particular regiment, once sent to an infantry base depot (IBD) in France and Flanders, he would be sent with a reinforcement draft to whatever battalion was most in need of men at the time.

Alternatively men might go to a Regiment associated with their home area, become wounded, sent home for recuperation, be passed fit, returned to an IBD and in the same way be sent to another unit in critical need of battle casualty replacements.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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PAC

Thanks FROGSMILE useful information especially as I'm hunting a chap from Dorset that may have found himself in the Lincolnshire regiment.  Quick update: I've located a Sidney Baker Service no. 37569 in the Lincolnshire Regiment.  Now to delve deeper to see if it ties in with Sidney's background!

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