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PAC

Cap Badge Identification

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PAC

I'm trying to locate the regiment of my Grandad Sidney Warne in an effort to trace his WW1 records. 

 

Bit of an enigma at this time and grateful if anyone could help in the identification of the cap badge in the attached photograph; of course its slightly defaced just to make it interesting!

Thanks in anticipation.

73309183_PHOTO-2019-01-05-09-40-34-Copy.jpg.3995c36c3596680bd117aacf91593481.jpg

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JulianR

Can you give his dob, place of birth etc., that may help in identification?

 

Forces War Records have 30 hits for Sidney Warne in WW1, even counting out the officers there are still about 20.

 

Thanks

 

Julian

Edited by JulianR

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munce

Military Mounted Police I'd say.

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jay dubaya

Good call munce, I’ll second that

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PAC

Thanks for the prompt responses.  DoB is 1892 in Hampshire; probably Ringwood but possible Christchurch.  Thanks again

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JulianR

On Ancestry there is a Sidney Edward Warn (note spelling) born in 2nd quarter 1892 in Christchurch, a Sidney E Warn dies in the New Forest in March 1948.  I cannot see a military record for him.

 

There is a Sidney Warn who served in the RA until 1917 and was discharged as being unfit. He married a Ruth Yshom on 12/11/1917

 

Julian

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PAC

Thank you and this is the enigma as I cannot locate his military service; hence starting from basics with the regiment. Thanks for searching.

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JulianR

Many records were destroyed in 1940.  I cannot see any thing on the Medal Rolls that might correspond.  There is a member of the Military Police Mseum who comes on here and may help.

 

Suggest that you tag the topic with Military Mounted Police also search Google and see if you can find their website and email them with a copy of the photo and what you know.

 

Are you sure about the spelling of his name?

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PRC

JulianR ‘s come back a bit more quickly than me but I take it this is the Sidney Edward WARN, mothers maiden name Whittingham, whose birth was registered in the Christchurch Civil Registration District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), 1892, but who doesn’t immediately appear to be on subsequent censuses. BTW - Christchurch Civil Registration District didn’t include the Civil Parish of Ringwood until 1932.

See https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/christchurch.html

 

Possibly the same Sidney E.WARN whose death aged 53 was recorded in the New Forest Civil Registration District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1948. No obvious Probate as either WARN or WARNE.

 

The most likely marriage of his parents was when a Henry Robert WARN married either a Mary Sophia Whittingham or a Jane Hardiman in the Christchurch District in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1880. (Marriages weren’t cross referenced back then in the published index)

 

Other likely children of the couple – all registered in the Christchurch District, mothers’ maiden name Whittingham.

 

Aga Mary WARN…………Q4 1882

Henry Charles WARN….Q1 1885

Alfred Frank WARN……Q1 1890

Winifred Alice WARN..Q4 1895

Robert George WARN..Q2 1898

 

The marriage date and the childrens’ births would seem to indicate they should at least turn up on the 1881 and 1891 censuses. There is a Robert H. WARN, a married 25 year old Plasterer, born Ringwood, Hampshire recorded on the 1881 census as the head of the household at Bargates, Christchurch. He lives there with his 23 year old wife, Mary S WARN, born Woolwich, Kent, and his 23 year old “daughter”, Sarah Whittingham, born Christchurch, Hampshire.

 

On the 1891 Census the family were recorded by the Census taker with the surname WARNE and living at Fairmile, Christchurch. As well as Robert, (35, Plasterer) and Mary S, (33), there are children Laura E, (12), Sarah L, (10), Aga M, (8), Henry C, (6), Gertrude J, (3) and Frank, (1) – all born Christchurch.

 

So do you know what happened next?  Is there any possibily the family split up? I can’t find a likely death record in England & Wales for either parent. If Mary remarried or became another man’s housekeeper, Sidney Ernest could have used his step-fathers name when he enlisted. Alternatively, if he didn’t like the guy, he might have reverted to his mothers maiden name. There was also no standard legal adoption process at this point in time, so if Mary died, the children could have been farmed out. Sidney Ernest could have ended up using his adopted parents surname.

 

You say he’s your grandad, so did the marriage happen during the period he was likely to have been serving? If so the marriage certificate should state his unit and rank, (and sometimes his service number). Similarly any birth certificate for children born during that time. If you have any idea where he might have been living in 1918 & 1919 it’s also worth considering the Absent Voters List.

 

Sorry that’s more questions than answers, but hope that helps,

Peter

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CorporalPunishment
2 hours ago, munce said:

Military Mounted Police I'd say.

Could be either Military Mounted Police or Military Foot Police. They both wore the same badge. Pete.

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58 Div Mule

Without doubt MFP/MMP. Toby Brayley will be along shortly with confirmation (RMP Museum).

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PAC

Once again thank you for the fantastic and gratefully received responses.  The feedback is impressive as PRC has summed up pretty succinctly the story so far; albeit took me more than a month ha ha.  The military police connection fits nicely with the family anecdote of 'doing something with horses'

 

To return to PRC; thanks Pete, my starting point was my Grandfathers 28 July 1923 marriage certificate which recorded his name as Albert Edward Sydney Warne with occupation as labourer.  Following this lead was fruitless and with further research I eventually reached the Sidney Warn birth and death dates aforementioned.   Hand-typed pre-internet notes from a distant relative who researched one of Sidney's siblings states that Robert and Mary had further children after Frank: Robert George(1899), Winifred (1902)  and Charles Warne.   My now 83 Year old Mother remembers 'Auntie Win' and my research yesterday confirmed Charles served in the Hampshire Regiment.  I do feel that it is worth mentioning the other part of the enigma that my Mother recounts that Sidney was hailed in Christchurch as Fatty Baker!.....

 

The only other photograph in existence which I thought may be of historical interest is now attached.  This again is a fit with the stories that he was wounded in France. My guess is that he is front row 4th from left between 2 nurses. (yes cap badge looks different!?)

 

Thank to everyone for taking the time to pick this up so accurately and I will be grateful for any further information passed my way in an effort to resolve Sidney's military career

regards

Paul

 

 

Sidney Warne France Copy 2.jpg

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Michelle Young

If that's him, it's a Lincolnshire Regiment cap badge.

 

Michelle

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jay dubaya
10 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

it's a Lincolnshire Regiment cap badge.

 

I’ll second that too

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The Inspector
Posted (edited)

Hi All, 

The marriage cert. quoted earlier 28th July, 1923.......leads to ....

Albert Edward Sydney Warne who married Mabel A Head in 1923 @ Christchurch , Hampshire was born on 3rd May 1890. Mabel was born 4th Dec, 1898. 1939 Register living at 75 Jumpers Road, Christchurch, Hampshire....looking

Mabel Ann Warne died.  June 1974  Bournemouth, Hampshire. 23, 0067.....

 

Photo

 

Regards Barry

Edited by The Inspector

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PAC

The Inspector has called!  Wow this is my grandmother in a never before seen photograph.  Are you able to share how you have located this?

regards

Paul

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PRC

It looks like he returned to the Christchurch area so may be worth contacting the Hampshire County Archive to see if they have the Absent Voters lists for 1918 and 1919 - Find My Past only has 1920 & 1921, which is probably too  late.

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/britain-absent-voters-constituency-list

 

Bit more on using the AVL to track down a soldier on the parent site.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

 

If he is Lincolnshire then still no obvious MiC for Warn \ Warne, nor an Albert S or Sidney E \ Sydney E who served with both the Lincolns and the Military Police.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)

Personally I’m confident that Corporal Punishment (Pete) is correct and the soldier in the first photo is a military policeman (either, MFP or MMP).  The Lincolnshire Regt badge is very different.

8A080B6B-D2D4-4314-8573-0B46B9BEA311.jpeg

A93972A7-AD96-4E63-8EA5-734B9A007551.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE

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munce
20 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Could be either Military Mounted Police or Military Foot Police. They both wore the same badge. Pete.

I realise I've been sucked into the myth that the MFP had their own distinctive cap badge. Thanks for the clarification!

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The Inspector
Posted (edited)

Hi Paul

Albert Edward Sydney Warne, your grandfather...What is his father's name on the marriage cert?

His birth date was 3rd May, 1890 so you have been working on the wrong person. 1939 register occ. builder's labourer as per marriage cert. The photo of your grandmother is on a Public Tree on Ancestry....looking

Regards Barry

Edited by The Inspector

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PAC

Hi Barry, that’s useful! The marriage certificate shows his Father as Robert Henry Warne occupation plasterer. 

Regards

Paul

 

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The Inspector
Posted (edited)

Hi Paul and all

OK thanks. agree with PRC re the Warn family. I think Sarah Whittingham on the 1881 census shown as daughter aged 23 yrs should be 3 yrs which would then tally with the 1891 census Sarah L Warn aged 10 yrs. Probably born before her parents were married as per PRC's post in 1880 and later taking her father's name. Sarah Louisa Warne was born 3rd May 1880, Christchurch and married George Crisp  15th Oct, 1904, Christchurch. Pte. 04201,  R.A.O.C. Residence on demob. Jumpers Road, Christchurch. Their eldest child, Charles Lawrence Crisp in 1939 was also a "plasterer"....looking

Regards Barry

Edited by The Inspector

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PRC
14 hours ago, PAC said:

To return to PRC; thanks Pete, my starting point was my Grandfathers 28 July 1923 marriage certificate which recorded his name as Albert Edward Sydney Warne with occupation as labourer.  Following this lead was fruitless and with further research I eventually reached the Sidney Warn birth and death dates aforementioned.   Hand-typed pre-internet notes from a distant relative who researched one of Sidney's siblings states that Robert and Mary had further children after Frank: Robert George(1899), Winifred (1902)  and Charles Warne.   My now 83 Year old Mother remembers 'Auntie Win' and my research yesterday confirmed Charles served in the Hampshire Regiment.  I do feel that it is worth mentioning the other part of the enigma that my Mother recounts that Sidney was hailed in Christchurch as Fatty Baker!.....

 

I hope I haven't lost the plot here, and that we are still trying to track down a Sidney Edward Warn born Christchurch, Hampshire in Q2 of 1892, rather than an Albert Edward Sydney Warne  born 3rd May 1890 for which there doesn't appear to be a match in the Civil Births records for England & Wales.

 

If so there may be a reason why he was called "Fatty Baker".

 

On the 1911 Census there is a Baker family living at 108 Bargates, Christchurch with some rather familiar first names, likely birth years and places of birth. And a possible indicator of how the various surnames and spellings have come about - father Harry has signed the declaration with an "X" his mark. The family consists of :-

Harry Baker, aged 54, a Plasterer, born Ringwood, Hampshire

Mary Baker, aged 52, born Woolwich

Frank Baker, aged 21, a Builders Labourer, born Christchurch

Sidney Baker, aged 18, a Builders Labourer, born Christchurch

Joe Baker, aged 17, a Boot Repairer, born Christchurch

Winnifred Baker, aged 15, assisting at home, born Christchurch

Robert Baker, aged 13, at school, born Christchurch.

Harry and Mary have been married 36 years, and have had 10 children, all then still alive - based on what has come up so far I'm not sure any of those three bits of information is strictly true if this is the WARN family by another name.

Also in the household is their 12 year old Grandson, Jesse White, born Christchurch.

 

Going back to the 1901 Census the same family appear to be living at 52 Bargates, Christchurch. The youngest "son" then of Harry and Mary Baker was a 2 year old Jesse Baker. They have another 8 children living with them including the 8 year old Sidney.

 

Again I can't see any Baker's with a MiC that shows them serving with the Lincolnshire Regiment and the Military Police. Possibly one worth a look was a Lance Corporal P/1371 Albert S Baker who enlisted 1st June 1915 and who was discharged on the 30th April 1918 according to his Silver War Badge MiC. Reason given for discharge is AO 265/17 Sec. B. which is one I don't recognise. Just to mix things up, the National Archive has a second MiC for that service number in the name of an A S Baker which has him landing in France on the 19th June 1915 and being discharged "M.U. 30.4.18".

 

Hope that helps,

 

Peter

Baker family Christchurch Hampshire 1911 Census sourced Genes Reunited.jpg

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The Inspector

Hi All

The only Warne I can find in the Military Foot Police is P1518 L.Warne, according to the MIC the medals were returned and would appear not re-issued. Brit/Vic/15Star France 21.6.15....looking

Regards Barry

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The Inspector

Hi PRC and all

If Albert Edward Sydney Warne is Paul's grandfather and he has identified Mabel A Head as his grandmother then somewhere along the trail things have got mixed up. Your "Bakers" post is very interesting.......

Regards Barry

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