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Aerogrudge

Bayonet with bearhead above wilkinson and dates ?

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Aerogrudge

So I came across this bayonet decided to look it up and I can't find this bearhead stamp mentioned anywhere, can someone help me out? 

IMG_20190228_014951311.jpg

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museumtom

Siam maybe?

Edited by museumtom

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peregrinvs

Siamese contract 1907 Pattern bayonet. The 'Bear' is a Tiger.

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Aerogrudge

Est. Value?  Ballpark I'm selling them. 

These are the only other markings I've found. 

IMG_20190228_020927.jpg

Edited by Aerogrudge
Adding a picture.

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trajan

JMB, over the pond in Florida, can say more on these - he has published an article titled "Statistical Analysis as an Adjunct to Historical Research: Identification of the Likely Manufacturers of British Pattern 1907 Bayonets Supplied by the Birmingham Small Arms Company to the Siamese Government in 1920".

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JMB1943

Aerogrudge,

 

This is one of 10,000 that was supplied by the Birmingham Small Arms Co. Ltd (BSA) in 1920 to the King of Siam, for his bodyguard, the Wild Tiger Corps; they accompanied an order for 10,000 SHTLE Rifles.

BSA bought British Pattern 1907 bayonets from government stores and refurbished them ( removal of maker name, and pattern date , addition of smiling tiger, serial number); you can see that this example was made by WILKINSON (most common maker) and 1907 (not the date of manufacture) is still very clear.

The original leather scabbards rotted quickly in the humid climate, and were replaced with a sheet steel scabbard to which the original top and bottom metal fittings were brazed.

Is your scabbard leather or steel? Original leather scabbards, stamped on back with tiger head and serial number, are VERY rare!

 

Your bayonet has a badly cracked grip, which lowers value; check local auction sales for estimate of value.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

edit: could you get an accurate weight on the bayonet (only)?

 

 

Edited by JMB1943
add info

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4thGordons

These bayonets command a premium regardless of condition.

 

It's not clear from the photo but is the scabbard leather or has the leather been replaced by metal (which was common in Siamese service)

Is it possible to tell what the serial number (they are not arabic numbers) is? It's stamped between the remains of Wilkinson and the 1907.

I have a couple of the rifles and 4 of the bayonets - I am always looking for the serial number to match my rifle (hey its 2 /9,964 not impossible!)

 

Chris 

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Aerogrudge

The sheath says mangrovite and some numbers ? Then on other side of the stitched seam it appears to have a couple symbols it has the grease still all over it on inside it appears to be leather in fair shape considering i can't find any numbers right off hand except by the name maybe . How should I proceed I don't want to ruin it cleaning it ? It appears to be a 143 possibly and opposite stitching appears to be a W spaced between an 1/2 inch a B > I'll send best pic I can 

 

IMG_20190228_020927.jpg

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Aerogrudge

IMG_20190228_202959677.jpg

No dents in metal leather is scuffed but no torn stitches 

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Aerogrudge
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Aerogrudge,

 

This is one of 10,000 that was supplied by the Birmingham Small Arms Co. Ltd (BSA) in 1920 to the King of Siam, for his bodyguard, the Wild Tiger Corps; they accompanied an order for 10,000 SHTLE Rifles.

BSA bought British Pattern 1907 bayonets from government stores and refurbished them ( removal of maker name, and pattern date , addition of smiling tiger, serial number); you can see that this example was made by WILKINSON (most common maker) and 1907 (not the date of manufacture) is still very clear.

The original leather scabbards rotted quickly in the humid climate, and were replaced with a sheet steel scabbard to which the original top and bottom metal fittings were brazed.

Is your scabbard leather or steel? Original leather scabbards, stamped on back with tiger head and serial number, are VERY rare!

 

Your bayonet has a badly cracked grip, which lowers value; check local auction sales for estimate of value.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

edit: could you get an accurate weight on the bayonet (only)?

 

 

489.8 grams weight of blade only as per request. Blade is original edge has not been sharpened. 

IMG_20190228_202936864.jpg

Edited by Aerogrudge
Additional information request.

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4thGordons

The scabbard is Australian and of WWII vintage thus not original to the bayonet.  As a pair this reduces the value but it common to find such pairings.

 

I would not do anything to either. If you intend to sell it let the purchaser make that decision. For me it is good as it is.

 

here are some of mine (in metal scabbards)

siamesetriplets.jpg.da5b3a6d63affcb47c97f5543a6bb701.jpg

siamtriplets3.jpg.1a7e244d9dbb196f3b40314411079004.jpg

 

and one of the rifle:

siamleft.jpg.032d55f2b1811c49688ceeadef555968.jpgsiamlright.jpg.9cb0f8f2fa31ccbe56a21e5fcee6fdbc.jpg

Siam-Crest.jpg.a3b6e3f2efe578ca9d4bf0019e5c54f7.jpgsiamserial.jpg.0ace3e22ae9e509a2bee80664ae8c3c3.jpg

 

 

 

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Aerogrudge

I have a metal scabbard, one as you described brazed it's not in great shape dented seams cracked open. That on contains a Remington bayonet. Original edge moderately fair condition wood is good. No other marks visible I've seen packed in grease . Weight 531.4 grams blade only. IMG_20190228_210520644.jpg.b7669ca496748da14c38bcd8f4378a7e.jpgIMG_20190228_210520644.jpg.b7669ca496748da14c38bcd8f4378a7e.jpg

IMG_20190228_210528955.jpg

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Aerogrudge

Nice pieces 4thgordon those are siam yes ? 

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trajan

Well thay all have the smiling Cheshire cat on them...:thumbsup:

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4thGordons
7 hours ago, Aerogrudge said:

I have a metal scabbard, one as you described brazed it's not in great shape dented seams cracked open. That on contains a Remington bayonet. Original edge moderately fair condition wood is good. No other marks visible I've seen packed in grease . Weight 531.4 grams blade only. 

 

 

This is a US M1917 Bayonet. for the rifle .30 M1917 (also fits some "trench shotguns")

As M1917s were not issued with metal scabbards it would appear to me that at some point they have been switched around. I would switch them back! I would also check to see if you have a "regular" 1907 Pattern bayonet and see what sort of scabbard that it in - a 3 way switch might be in order.

 

Put the metal scabbard with the Siamese bayonet (with which it undoubtedly belongs)

 

A mangrovite scabbard could easily be a replacement for almost any P1907 although would be "most correct" with a WWII vintage Lithgow blade

 

The M1917 would originally have had a green US scabbard (with a belt hanger) but they are often found in normal P1907 scabbards in the UK because of WWII home guard use.

 

Chris

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JMB1943
11 hours ago, Aerogrudge said:

489.8 grams weight of blade only as per request. Blade is original edge has not been sharpened. 

 

Thanks for that.

That weight is at the low end of the BSA/Siamese bayonets that I have recorded; the article that Trajan alluded to was an account of these Siamese bayonets and how their weights are very much more tightly controlled than are the weights of P.1907 bayonets in the population at large.

Is there a better photo of the serial number available?

If you are in the UK, look at the Gunstar.co.uk site for bayonet prices; if in US, then eBay.

It helps tremendously that you have the correct metal scabbard for it.

Good Luck with the sale.

 

Regards,

JMB

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