arantxa Posted 26 February , 2019 Share Posted 26 February , 2019 could this be from a Pith helmet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 26 February , 2019 Share Posted 26 February , 2019 (edited) Certainly. Edited 26 February , 2019 by Grovetown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Hall Posted 26 February , 2019 Share Posted 26 February , 2019 Royal Artiilery flash too. "11 H" is interesting. The only "11" th brigades that i am aware of were field artillery,I.E. "F" - not "H" Howitzer batteries. 11th Hull Heavy Battery RGA?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 26 February , 2019 Share Posted 26 February , 2019 (edited) The brass title and regimental colours relate to the 11th (Prince Albert’s Own) Hussars. It is the same title as was used on shoulder straps according to the 1894 Clothing Regulations. Edited 26 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Hall Posted 27 February , 2019 Share Posted 27 February , 2019 The cherry pickers were my first thought too. Blindsided by the red / blue TRF. I must try to remember that there are other arms of service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliot#1 Posted 27 February , 2019 Share Posted 27 February , 2019 Sorry to disappoint , but it's not 11th Hussars. The regimental colours are Crimson and Gold and I've never seen a helmet marked like this in the 100's of photos of various styled pith helmets in the regimental archives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 February , 2019 Share Posted 27 February , 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, elliot#1 said: Sorry to disappoint , but it's not 11th Hussars. The regimental colours are Crimson and Gold and I've never seen a helmet marked like this in the 100's of photos of various styled pith helmets in the regimental archives. The regimental colours are indeed crimson and gold now, as used in the regimental tie. These regimental colours do not by any means always align with helmet flashes from the turn of the century. It would be useful to gain the opinion of the museum itself. The shoulder title is certainly that used by the 11th Hussars. Regimental ribbons (and ties) in regimental colours only began to be common after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War. I enclose a link to a chart (reproduced from a period wall chart) that shows the ribbon of the 11th Hussars at that time: http://www.frontiernet.net/~ericbush/MiSh/Regt.html. You will see that it was neither, cherry and gold, nor cherry and blue. Edited 27 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliot#1 Posted 27 February , 2019 Share Posted 27 February , 2019 Sorry, I should have been more detailed as to my reasoning, but I do understand where you're coming from. The Crimson and White in the link you provided comes from the Busby plumes worn by the regiment. By the time of the Great War, the regiment were marking steel helmets in Crimson and Gold. I find it hard to believe the 11th would ever have used red and not crimson, regardless of helmet flashes not always being in regimental colours pre c1900 (they had a fierce pride in this)! The colour of this flash doesn't have any 11th Hussars connection. I have listed below where and when the regiment were stationed that would mean the issue of a pith helmet. India - 1866 - 1878 South Africa 1890 - 1892 India 1892 - 1899 Egypt 1899 - 1903 Egypt 1919 - 1921 India 1921 - 1926 Egypt 1934 - 1939 (including Palestine) At no point did the 11th Hussars adopt helmet flashes or markings until the Great War (painted on steel helmets) or again afterwards. In the regimental archives we have an extensive photograph collection from all of these periods, and none of them show any markings. In addition, no markings are noted anywhere else in any of the large regimental archives. The badge in the photo looks like a later construction, something I would expect to see most commonly in the 1920s and 1930s. The metal 11 and H look to be cast and not well finished, something normally made locally overseas (Not that this has any bearing, but more for the reference of the original post). If I was a betting man, I would go with this being an Artillery flash as previously mentioned. It is also possible the metal badges are later additions to the flash. I hope that clears things up abit. This is the opinion of the museum. Elliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 February , 2019 Share Posted 27 February , 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, elliot#1 said: Sorry, I should have been more detailed as to my reasoning, but I do understand where you're coming from. The Crimson and White in the link you provided comes from the Busby plumes worn by the regiment. By the time of the Great War, the regiment were marking steel helmets in Crimson and Gold. I find it hard to believe the 11th would ever have used red and not crimson, regardless of helmet flashes not always being in regimental colours pre c1900 (they had a fierce pride in this)! The colour of this flash doesn't have any 11th Hussars connection. I have listed below where and when the regiment were stationed that would mean the issue of a pith helmet. India - 1866 - 1878 South Africa 1890 - 1892 India 1892 - 1899 Egypt 1899 - 1903 Egypt 1919 - 1921 India 1921 - 1926 Egypt 1934 - 1939 (including Palestine) At no point did the 11th Hussars adopt helmet flashes or markings until the Great War (painted on steel helmets) or again afterwards. In the regimental archives we have an extensive photograph collection from all of these periods, and none of them show any markings. In addition, no markings are noted anywhere else in any of the large regimental archives. The badge in the photo looks like a later construction, something I would expect to see most commonly in the 1920s and 1930s. The metal 11 and H look to be cast and not well finished, something normally made locally overseas (Not that this has any bearing, but more for the reference of the original post). If I was a betting man, I would go with this being an Artillery flash as previously mentioned. It is also possible the metal badges are later additions to the flash. I hope that clears things up abit. This is the opinion of the museum. Elliot That’s a very interesting rundown of the evidence that comes from the museum Elliot, thank you for posting it. Certainly the colours relate historically to the RA, although the way in which they were rendered varied over the years. The precise shade also varies after so many years in storage, not to mention sunlight and other environmental factors of course. It’s intriguing to learn from you that the 11th H wore no helmet flash at all. I enclose some images of RA helmets of various types used over a half century. Certainly a diamond shape seems to have been used by some RA units during WW2 with a vertical divide rather than the horizontal divide that was favoured previously. I think that the change was perhaps inspired by the configuration of the arm of service strips adopted for wear on the arms. Like Gunner Hall, I cannot think of any category of RA that fits ‘11 H’, so more research needed. I suppose we shouldn’t forget that the title might have been added to the flash retrospectively. Edited 27 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliot#1 Posted 27 February , 2019 Share Posted 27 February , 2019 2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: That’s a very interesting rundown of the evidence that comes from the museum Elliot, thank you for posting it. Certainly the colours relate historically to the RA, although the way in which they were rendered varied over the years. The precise shade also varies after so many years in storage, not to mention sunlight and other environmental factors of course. It’s intriguing to learn from you that the 11th H wore no helmet flash at all. I enclose some images of RA helmets of various types used over a half century. Certainly a diamond shape seems to have been used by some RA units during WW2 with a vertical divide rather than the horizontal divide that was favoured previously. I think the change was perhaps inspired by the configuration of the arm of service strips adopted for wear on the arms. Fading colours can make it so hard sometimes to identify flashes! One battalion had to change it's flash in the Great War due to the sun fading them completely (I can't remember which off the top of my head). It's almost unbelievable that the amount of time they spent overseas that they didn't ever adopt a flash. Some great pictures there, thanks for sharing. Is the 1899-1902 Flash chart at the bottom yours? I can think of a few others that could be added to it. It's such a fascinating subject. Elliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 February , 2019 Share Posted 27 February , 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, elliot#1 said: Fading colours can make it so hard sometimes to identify flashes! One battalion had to change it's flash in the Great War due to the sun fading them completely (I can't remember which off the top of my head). It's almost unbelievable that the amount of time they spent overseas that they didn't ever adopt a flash. Some great pictures there, thanks for sharing. Is the 1899-1902 Flash chart at the bottom yours? I can think of a few others that could be added to it. It's such a fascinating subject. Elliot No the chart isn’t mine, Elliot. Possibly from the seminal book, ‘Sun Helmets’ by Stuart Bates and Peter Suciu, but I’m unsure. Edited 28 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arantxa Posted 27 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2019 Thank you everyone for your replies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now