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KernelPanic

Information of the reverse of a 1914-1915 medal

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KernelPanic

I've attach a photo of my GGF's 1914-1915 medal. It gives his number, name, and A.S.C. He was medically discharged in Sept. 1917. T-977 was his original number, but according to his MIC, this was changed to T4/247856 (last digit could be 1) in, I presume, early 1917. 

 

I have a couple of questions:

 

1) Why doesn't the medal use the 6 digit number he had at discharge?

2) Does the medal info reflect where he was when he was discharged, ie. with the A.S.C? His MIC doesn't mention anything apart from the A.S.C. so I presume he completed his service with the A.S.C. It seems obvious, but I just want to make sure. I've yet to try tracking down any surviving service or medical records. 

 

 

Thanks.

 

Medals.jpg

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GWF1967

Hi, 

 the star is marked with the No. and regiment he first served overseas as/with. The British War and Victory Medal would normally be marked with his later No. 

 The T- prefix indicates he served with a horse transport unit. 

He was discharged on 8/6/1917 and awarded a Silver War Badge, No. 209386. 

Edited by GWF1967

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KernelPanic

Thanks for the quick reply.

Of course, the information being relevant for 1914-1915 makes sense. As both of the other two medals have George V on the reverse, would his personal info be inscribed on their edges? (I don't have physical access to his medals.)

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GWF1967
21 minutes ago, KernelPanic said:

Thanks for the quick reply.

Of course, the information being relevant for 1914-1915 makes sense. As both of the other two medals have George V on the reverse, would his personal info be inscribed on their edges? (I don't have physical access to his medals.)

Yes. The BW and VM are inscribed around the rim. 

 

He he was discharged to the class P reserve, for men "whose services are deemed to be temporarily of more value to the country in civil life rather that in the army". Not one I'd come across before. 

Do you happen to know his trade pre war?

Edited by GWF1967

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KernelPanic

Thanks again! I'll ask the person who has his medals to take a look on the edges.

 

I'm very curious to hear how you found out about his class P reserve discharge. I presume his pension/service papers are available online. I haven't looked yet, but it would be great news for me if they were.

 

Although he was from Sheffield, he was a miner in Co. Durham. The 1911 census says he was a 'hewer', which is a miner at the sharp end of the coal face. If I remember correctly from many years ago, my GGM said he was also involved with horses in the mines. I have 2 photos of him on horseback in his military uniform. So I sure he was very comfortable with them, and that's why he ended up as a Driver in the ASC Horse Transport. 


We have a set of his medical pension papers that gives his complete Medical Exam Board history from early 1917 - 1924. It states that he was given C1 status in Feb 1917 because of 'Disordered Activity of the Heart' (one of the symptoms that is now included with PTSD), then to the P reserve in June 1917, and finally discharged in Sept. 1917. However, these papers are not on official pension forms. They are a type-written chronology on plain paper, probably from when his final pension status was made in 1924. I'd be interested to know if these are included in this form in his official service/pension record.

Edited by KernelPanic

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CorporalPunishment

Your GGF's 1914-15 Star has the wrong medal ribbon, the ribbon is that of the British War Medal. Pete.

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BillyH
9 hours ago, KernelPanic said:

- - - - -  both of the other two medals have George V on the reverse, would his personal info be inscribed on their edges? (I don't have physical access to his medals.)

 

The Victory Medal does not have George V on either side. Just wondering if you are referring to a different medal?

Have you ever seen them?

The reference to Class P Army Reserve reference is on the medal rolls (available on Ancestry).

 

BillyH.

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
7 hours ago, KernelPanic said:

 'Disordered Activity of the Heart' (one of the symptoms that is now included with PTSD)

 

I don't think so.

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

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KernelPanic
5 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Your GGF's 1914-15 Star has the wrong medal ribbon, the ribbon is that of the British War Medal. Pete.

Thanks. Looks like we're missing the ribbon for the 1914-1915 star.

medals reverse.jpg

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KernelPanic
4 hours ago, BillyH said:

 

The Victory Medal does not have George V on either side. Just wondering if you are referring to a different medal?

Have you ever seen them?

The reference to Class P Army Reserve reference is on the medal rolls (available on Ancestry).

 

BillyH.

Thanks. He just had these 3 medals. My memory was incorrect. 

I'll have to take a look at the medal rolls. I only have his MIC from the National Archives.  

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BillyH

 

6 hours ago, KernelPanic said:

Thanks. Looks like we're missing the ribbon for the 1914-1915 star.

 

You can easily buy a replacement medal ribbon, it's not expensive.

 

BillyH.

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TEW

Bit complicated finding his medal details! He can be Walter or Philip on various sources. 'Normal' MIC as Walter then a discharge type card as Philip but SWB as Walter.

 

Quote

We have a set of his medical pension papers that gives his complete Medical Exam Board history from early 1917 - 1924. It states that he was given C1 status in Feb 1917 because of 'Disordered Activity of the Heart' (one of the symptoms that is now included with PTSD), then to the P reserve in June 1917, and finally discharged in Sept. 1917. However, these papers are not on official pension forms. They are a type-written chronology on plain paper, probably from when his final pension status was made in 1924. I'd be interested to know if these are included in this form in his official service/pension record

 

I've not been able to find any records for him other than MIC, Medal Rolls and SWB roll. There are a few WFA pension cards for him which shows home address in Chester-le-Street and then emigrating to Canada circa 1924?

 

The papers you have may then be originals that no longer exist anywhere else.

TEW

 

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ss002d6252

In 1924 he received a Final Award so that would indicate that his medical problems had stabilised and they had decided what the ongoing award would be.

 

In June 1925 his pension was transferred to the overseas branch.

 

At the bottom of the June 1925 card there is reference to another ledger entry, 2/MM/9085. This would suggest the came back to the UK relatively quickly as it seems to have started in Nov 1925.

Craig

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Gardenerbill

With reference to the number T4/247856 the T4 relates to Kitchener's 4th Volunteer Army, and was probably issued in the middle part of 1916, a look up of near numbers would give, a more accurate number allocation date. Not sure why he was issued with a new number though.

Edited by Gardenerbill

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kenf48
1 hour ago, Gardenerbill said:

With reference to the number T4/247856 the T4 relates to Kitchener's 4th Volunteer Army, and was probably issued in the early part of 1916, a look up of near numbers would give, a more accurate number allocation date. Not sure why he was issued with a new number though.

 

The six digit number was probably allocated on transfer to the Regular ASC on the 1st September 1916.  It is however rather obscure

See this earlier thread

However it appears this six digit number was in a sequence allotted to men who originally joined the 3/1st (Reserve) ASC West Riding Division. This was a TF unit based in Leeds, with connections to York. T/977 looks like a relatively early number therefore I think we can place him in the 1st or 2/1st ASC West Riding Division Divisional Transport and Supply Column 49th (West Riding) Division which was renamed the 49th Divisional Train on embarkation

(See LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/49th-west-riding-division/).

 

You will see his entry into theatre as shown on the mic is commensurate with the above Division.  I've not researched the T/977 number but guess he was a wartime recruit who signed the Imperial Obligation on enlistment or shortly afterwards.

 

As a matter of interest, a slip that accompanied the BWM and VM medals, which were sent out by registered post, stated:-

 

"To avoid unnecessary correspondence, kindly note that the Regtl. particulars inscribed on the British War & Victory Medals are those held on first disembarkation in a theatre of war. The rank is the highest attained, PROVIDED IT WAS HELD IN A THEATRE OF WAR OR OVERSEAS PRIOR TO 11.11.18. Appointments such as L/Sgts., L/Cpl/, etc. are not inscribed on Medals, SPECIAL NOTE TO THOSE WHO SERVED IN RIFLE REGTS. 'Rifleman" is not inscribed on War Medals, "Pte." being the correct designation of this rank." (their caps).

 

As he is on the ASC Rolls that was also his last unit.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by kenf48

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KernelPanic
On 26/02/2019 at 04:43, TEW said:

Bit complicated finding his medal details! He can be Walter or Philip on various sources. 'Normal' MIC as Walter then a discharge type card as Philip but SWB as Walter.

 

I've not been able to find any records for him other than MIC, Medal Rolls and SWB roll. There are a few WFA pension cards for him which shows home address in Chester-le-Street and then emigrating to Canada circa 1924?

 

The papers you have may then be originals that no longer exist anywhere else.

TEW

 

 

 

On 26/02/2019 at 05:17, ss002d6252 said:

In 1924 he received a Final Award so that would indicate that his medical problems had stabilised and they had decided what the ongoing award would be.

 

In June 1925 his pension was transferred to the overseas branch.

 

At the bottom of the June 1925 card there is reference to another ledger entry, 2/MM/9085. This would suggest the came back to the UK relatively quickly as it seems to have started in Nov 1925.

Craig

Thanks TEW and Craig for the info.

 

There have to be some crossed wires somewhere. My GGF only ever had one name, Walter. 'Philip' is not on his birth, marriage, and death certificates, and I've never heard the family refer to him as such. His medal rolls, including the his Silver War Badge, all have Walter, with either T977 or T4/247856. TEW, where did you see this "discharge type card"?

 

I've also never heard of any possible emigration to Canada. I'm sure that never happened, but I'll ask around. Maybe the transfer of his pension records was a clerical error that was corrected in 1925? As a follow-up, my next search will be his pension records in Fold3. Craig, those links are very helpful.

 

To complete the story, Walter died in 1938 from complications of the trench nephritis he first developed in 1916, and for which (along with the DAH) he was awarded his pension. The attending physician at his death supported a claim from my GGM for a war widows pension, which was granted. I gather this is a little surprising given the 20-odd years between his first diagnosis in 1916 to his death. 

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KernelPanic
On 26/02/2019 at 06:26, kenf48 said:

 

The six digit number was probably allocated on transfer to the Regular ASC on the 1st September 1916.  It is however rather obscure

See this earlier thread

However it appears this six digit number was in a sequence allotted to men who originally joined the 3/1st (Reserve) ASC West Riding Division. This was a TF unit based in Leeds, with connections to York. T/977 looks like a relatively early number therefore I think we can place him in the 1st or 2/1st ASC West Riding Division Divisional Transport and Supply Column 49th (West Riding) Division which was renamed the 49th Divisional Train on embarkation

(See LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/49th-west-riding-division/).

 

You will see his entry into theatre as shown on the mic is commensurate with the above Division.  I've not researched the T/977 number but guess he was a wartime recruit who signed the Imperial Obligation on enlistment or shortly afterwards.

 

As a matter of interest, a slip that accompanied the BWM and VM medals, which were sent out by registered post, stated:-

 

"To avoid unnecessary correspondence, kindly note that the Regtl. particulars inscribed on the British War & Victory Medals are those held on first disembarkation in a theatre of war. The rank is the highest attained, PROVIDED IT WAS HELD IN A THEATRE OF WAR OR OVERSEAS PRIOR TO 11.11.18. Appointments such as L/Sgts., L/Cpl/, etc. are not inscribed on Medals, SPECIAL NOTE TO THOSE WHO SERVED IN RIFLE REGTS. 'Rifleman" is not inscribed on War Medals, "Pte." being the correct designation of this rank." (their caps).

 

As he is on the ASC Rolls that was also his last unit.

 

Ken

 

 

Thanks Ken, but if I'm understanding you correctly, I don't believe this is right, despite the later 6 digit number sequence. My GGF joined the TF from Chester-le-Street in Co. Durham, probably in June 1914. His Medal Roll entries and a hospital admissions record for Dec 1915/Jan 1916 (obtained from FWR), all show him with the 50th (Northumbrian) Divisional Train, with him being attached to the HQ (467) Coy. The 50th Divisional Train also left for France around the the same time as the 49th in April 1915.

 

But that slip you quote suggests that the Medal Rolls entries are only when he entered France in Apr 1915. So I suppose I still have no evidence that he didn't change Divisions or Coys within the ASC at some point later. Confusing!

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BillyH
1 hour ago, KernelPanic said:

- - - - - As a follow-up, my next search will be his pension records in Fold3.

 

KP, I'm not sure if you know this but Fold3 is just Ancestry in another (money grabbing) guise. I pay more than enough to Ancestry for my annual subscription and won't pay any more for Fold3.

Now, I stand to be corrected by other members who do pay for Fold3, but I don't think the pension record  will add ANYTHING to your knowledge re your ggf.

We are not allowed by the GWF to do look ups off Ancestry, but perhaps someone who does have it could simply advise you if that record is of any use to you?

Incidentally, I haven't seen anything for him that uses the christian name of Philip, that may be a red herring?

 

BillyH. 

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ss002d6252
14 minutes ago, BillyH said:

 

KP, I'm not sure if you know this but Fold3 is just Ancestry in another (money grabbing) guise. I pay more than enough to Ancestry for my annual subscription and won't pay any more for Fold3.

Now, I stand to be corrected by other members who do pay for Fold3, but I don't think the pension record  will add ANYTHING to your knowledge re your ggf.

We are not allowed by the GWF to do look ups off Ancestry, but perhaps someone who does have it could simply advise you if that record is of any use to you?

Incidentally, I haven't seen anything for him that uses the christian name of Philip, that may be a red herring?

 

BillyH. 

Apart from allowing the viewing of the Pension Ledgers, which are only on Fold3, there's likely nothing else that isn't already on Ancestry.

 

Craig

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TEW

I had difficulty finding his MIC on ancestry so looked on The Genealogist. The discharge type card had his 6 digit number but named him as Mason, Philip. It may well be an error as the card links to the SWB roll which has him as Walter.

There were also 3 WFA cards for him on fold3, I only checked one which has Walter, correct number & address. This had the Canada connection.

Perhaps there was a muddle up with a Philip Mason with a similar number?

I do recall seeing 'North.' on one of the medal rolls.

TEW

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ss002d6252
7 hours ago, TEW said:

I had difficulty finding his MIC on ancestry so looked on The Genealogist. The discharge type card had his 6 digit number but named him as Mason, Philip. It may well be an error as the card links to the SWB roll which has him as Walter.

There were also 3 WFA cards for him on fold3, I only checked one which has Walter, correct number & address. This had the Canada connection.

Perhaps there was a muddle up with a Philip Mason with a similar number?

I do recall seeing 'North.' on one of the medal rolls.

TEW

This is the FMP transcription of that card.

image.png.ae5961a8c2f329e933d5ca9dd3c0cafa.png

 

 

Craig

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TEW

There are two MICs on Ancestry, the one Craig's transcribed and his 'normal' one. The discharge card (under Philip) also has the Ref. to his SWB roll ASC/1248. That SWB roll has the name Walter, clearly a mistake somewhere.

 

His Medal Roll for BWM/Vict is easy to find on Ancestry and he is listed as North. Div. Tn. ASC (TF) Driver.

 

Medal Roll for 1914-15 Star is tricky. I found it eventually by following the badly written RASC/1C5 p682 ref which leads to WO329/2898. None of the men on this list are indexed on Ancestry so the only way to find it is manually via;

Browse for the Medal Rolls - 1914-1915 Star - Royal Army Service Corps - Piece 2898 Ancestry page 26/355. This gives Northumberland Div. Train.

 

There appears to be a conflict with his date of discharge across the various rolls. I think the date 8/6/17 given as a discharge date on some records is a date of transfer from ASC to RASC.

 

His discharge on Medal Rolls is 18/9/1917 is under Para 392 xvi discharged as no longer physically fit for active service.

 

But the discharge card & SWB roll have Transferred to Army Reserve Class P, Pension Awarded. 8/6/1917. NB the SWB roll is not for discharge it's for a transfer which applies to all 12 men on the list. From the list dates it seems he would have received his SWB two months before his medical discharge.

 

The 3 WFA pension ledgers are 2MM/6152, 2MM/8806 & 2MM/9085. All as Walter T4/247856

 

6152 has 'Transferred to overseas (Canada) 10/6/1924. Home address 2 Thompsons Yard, Low Chare. (and others).

8806 has 'Transferred to overseas awards branch 10/6/1925. Home address 28 Gill Crescent Hostel? Fencehouses.

The case was re-opened on ledger 2MM/9085 which seems to run to April 1932. Home address 24 Bridport Rd, Sheffield.

 

Clearly something's amiss here, they have transferred him to Canada on same date a year apart and then reopened his case after a short gap.

 

8806 & 9085 have DAH & another disability which may be Nephritis.

 

I've looked on FMP under the MH106 Hospital & Admissions and not seen him there. If FWR have such a record it means they have more transcriptions.

TEW

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ss002d6252
29 minutes ago, TEW said:

6152 has 'Transferred to overseas (Canada) 10/6/1924. Home address 2 Thompsons Yard, Low Chare. (and others).

8806 has 'Transferred to overseas awards branch 10/6/1925. Home address 28 Gill Crescent Hostel? Fencehouses. 

The case was re-opened on ledger 2MM/9085 which seems to run to April 1932. Home address 24 Bridport Rd, Sheffield.

 

Clearly something's amiss here, they have transferred him to Canada on same date a year apart and then reopened his case after a short gap.

 

2MM/9085 is from 1925 (If you look in the left-hand column you can make out the entry for 4 Nov 1925) - The transferred column in the top left of the card shows it was handed back from the overseas branch.

 

Craig

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ss002d6252

The 2 dates a year apart for the transfer but related to the same overseas number - 40026/OS/M.

What I suspect might have happened is,
 

On #6152 the annotations end 21 May 1924 but that ties in with a final award being issued so the amount of correspondence would be low after that point. What I think happened next is that someone has marked #6152 to state the case is overseas but managed to put the wrong year down. For some reason a new card, #8806 was then opened and that card was closed when the case was transferred to the overseas branch in June 1925. Card #9085 was then opened when the case was handed back from the overseas branch.


One way forward is to cross check the overseas number but that would require looking through other cards and trying to find other examples so a chronology can be built up of number/date - as yet I have only done that for pensions up to 1919 (and then only for UK paid pensions).

Craig

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KernelPanic

Craig and TEW,

MANY thanks for digging deep into the pensions records for my GGF. It's very helpful.

 

All the dates and locations add up. He lived with his family in the Chester-le-Street area before and after WW1, and then moved to Sheffield at some point, probably in the late 20s. His daughter married in Sheffield, where my mom was born in the early 30s. He died there, and my GGM remained in Sheffield until she died in the 70s.

 

His date of discharge does look a little confusing. But the pension history document that we have is quite helpful (parts attached here). It's a detailed record of the dates of all his various boards and medical exams, and it includes a lot of medical detail about his heart and kidney conditions. It's highly unlikely that it's in any official archive. We're just lucky that it survived. 

 

This document gives his medical history during his service, which describes his transfer to C1 status in Feb 1917 by a travelling medical board, I presume in France. With C1 I assume he returned to England at that point for duty in a home facility or something. Then to Class P Army reserve in June 1917 (we now know this was the 8th of June), with his final army discharge 18th Sept. 1917.

 

Now the fascinating part is that our document is signed by the Chief of the Imperial Pension Division, S.V. Paterson, D.S.C.R., which is the "Dept. of Soldiers Civll Re-establshment" The ref in the lower left is "IPM 5/36' Maybe the date? The  Imperial Pension Division is Canadian, as is the DSCR. When I first saw this it made no sense. But now knowing that his docs were transferred overseas for a short period, maybe it does. So not a clerical error after all. I need to ask my mom if she knows more.

 

If the ref in the bottom left is a date, I suspect the document was part of my GGM's claim for a war widows pension in 1938-39.

 

Thanks again to you both. This is all invaluable.

Untitled-1.jpg

Untitled-2.jpg

Edited by KernelPanic
corrected text

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