Need help identifying this man

[Victoria Rose]

Hi. I have been doing some family research and came across a photo of this unnamed man. I believe he’s related to me and would love to figure out who he is! All I have so far from this photo is that he was in the military and this was taking in Preston, UK. I’m hoping if I can narrow down what part of the military he was in I can somehow figure out who he is! Any information about his uniform would be great. Thank you so much!! 

[ss002d6252]

Preston had barracks for the Loyal North Lancs and the East Lancs. The uniform looks like it's pre-ww1 but someone who's an expert should be able to tell you.

Do you have any suggestions as to likely men ?

Craig

[Victoria Rose]

12 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Preston had barracks for the Loyal North Lancs and the East Lancs. The uniform looks like it's pre-ww1 but someone who's an expert should be able to tell you.

Do you have any suggestions as to likely men ?

Craig

His last name could be Joyce. 

[ss002d6252]

6 minutes ago, Victoria Rose said:

His last name could be Joyce. 

Any possibilities on the first name ? Where any born in or around Preston ?

To me he looks quite young, perhaps a 18/19yr who has just enlisted.

Craig

[Victoria Rose]

1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

Any possibilities on the first name ? Where any born in or around Preston ?

To me he looks quite young, perhaps a 18/19yr who has just enlisted.

Craig

I’ve got nothing else  it was in a random assortment of photos from my grandmas box of pictures. She never talked about her family so I have no ideas.  Is there any identifying details on his uniform that could help narrow things down? 

[ss002d6252]

Are you able to get a close up image of the belt buckle and the left shoulder ?

 

Craig

[Victoria Rose]

10 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Are you able to get a close up image of the belt buckle and the left shoulder ?

 

Craig

 

[FROGSMILE]

He is East Lancashire Regiment circa 1900.  His collar badge a Lancashire Rose, his plain blue Field Service Cap, and tunic with so-called ‘jam pot’ cuffs, replaced with a new pattern in 1902.  From 1881 until the latter year English and Welsh Regiments without the appellation of ‘Royal’ in their title wore white collar and cuffs (aka facings).

 

He is dressed for ‘walking out’ (of barracks) with typical swagger cane/stick and white gloves.  Walking out was not a right but a privilege that all soldiers had to earn and that required a smart turnout and clearly defined form of dress as shown here.  

 

Around the time of the photo the 1st Battalion was overseas, the 2nd Battalion at Aldershot and the regimental depot and RHQ at Beverley.

 

Edited 22 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[ss002d6252]

I knew someone would be able to provide an identification of the uniform.

 

Craig

[BillyH]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

I knew someone would be able to provide an identification of the uniform.

 

. . . . . and it's very often Frogsmile, where would we be without him?   

 

BillyH.

[Victoria Rose]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

He is East Lancashire Regiment circa 1900.  His collar badge a Lancashire Rose, his plain blue Field Service Cap, and tunic with so-called ‘jam pot’ cuffs, replaced with a new pattern in 1902. 

 

He is dressed for ‘walking out’ (of barracks) with typical swagger cane/stick and white gloves.  Walking out was not a right but a privilege that all soldiers had to earn and that required a smart turnout and clearly defined form of dress as shown here.  

 

Around the time of the photo the 1st Battalion was overseas, the 2nd Battalion at Aldershot and the regimental depot and RHQ at Beverley.

 

Wow!!! That is awesome thank you so much for the information!! So cool and interesting. Do you know if there is a photo archive of all the soldiers so i could try to find out his name? 

[FROGSMILE]

No, I’m afraid there is no photo archive.  In those pre-internet days photography was not available (affordable) for everyone in the way that it is now.

 

The East Lancashire Regiment vacated Beverley and moved to share Fulwood Barracks, Preston, with the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment in 1898.  You can read a little about the very famous barracks here: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.blogpreston.co.uk/2016/11/fulwood-barracks-from-the-beginning-a-short-history/amp/

 

You might also find the story of the barracks ghost, and the folk song similarly inspired, of some interest too: http://www.lancashireinfantrymuseum.org.uk/a-fearful-tragedy-and-the-ballad-of-private-mccaffery/

Edited 21 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Victoria Rose]

21 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

No, I’m afraid there is no photo archive.  In those pre-internet days photography was not available (affordable) for everyone in the way that it is now.

 

The East Lancashire Regiment vacated Beverley and moved to share Fulwood Barracks, Preston, with the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment in 1898.  You can read a little about the very famous barracks here: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.blogpreston.co.uk/2016/11/fulwood-barracks-from-the-beginning-a-short-history/amp/

 

You might also find the story of the barracks ghost, and the folk song similarly inspired, of some interest too: http://www.lancashireinfantrymuseum.org.uk/a-fearful-tragedy-and-the-ballad-of-private-mccaffery/

I will check those out, thank you!! One more question, Is there a list of men from the East Lancashire Regiment in the 1900's? I'm wondering if I can look through and see if any family names stand out and maybe cross reference with Ancestry. You've been a lot of help I'm so grateful! 

[FROGSMILE]

Until recently the only way to trace the records of pre-WW1 British soldiers was via the National Archives, but although that can still be done via this link: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-soldiers-up-to-1913/

the records have also been sold to various profit making genealogy websites such as findmypast.com

It’s really dependent on how much of the searching you are prepared to do yourself.  Unfortunately you usually have to enter a surname/family name yourself and, unless the name is unusual, you will tend to find a huge number through which you then have to sift.

 

Edited 21 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[familyhistoryman]

5 hours ago, Victoria Rose said:

Hi. I have been doing some family research and came across a photo of this unnamed man. I believe he’s related to me and would love to figure out who he is! All I have so far from this photo is that he was in the military and this was taking in Preston, UK. I’m hoping if I can narrow down what part of the military he was in I can somehow figure out who he is! Any information about his uniform would be great. Thank you so much!! 

Hi

It could be worth for someone in the Preston area to check the trade directories to see the years the photo studio was operating. This will help to narrow down the likely year the photo was take

Regards

Tony

[IPT]

Where was your grandmother from?

[Dragoon]

Hello, 

Sorry FROGSMILE to put a spanner in the works, I've zoomed in on the collar badge and it looks more like a Prince of Wales feathers? What do you think, I'll happily stand corrected.

 

Chris

[BillyH]

Is there anything at all written on the back of the photo?

 

BillyH.

[Victoria Rose]

1 hour ago, familyhistoryman said:

Hi

It could be worth for someone in the Preston area to check the trade directories to see the years the photo studio was operating. This will help to narrow down the likely year the photo was take

Regards

Tony

That’s a good idea I’ll try to google someone in the Preston area! 

1 hour ago, IPT said:

Where was your grandmother from?

My grandma was a San Francisco native but according to ancestry her grandparents were from Ireland and England. 

1 hour ago, BillyH said:

Is there anything at all written on the back of the photo?

 

BillyH.

Nothing on the back unfortunately

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Dragoon said:

Hello, 

Sorry FROGSMILE to put a spanner in the works, I've zoomed in on the collar badge and it looks more like a Prince of Wales feathers? What do you think, I'll happily stand corrected.

 

Chris

 

Hello Chris,

 

I did consider that and agree that on the right side as we look there is similarity to POW feathers, but after squinting at the other side I believe it’s an optical illusion caused by some reflective distortion and that what we are seeking are the upper petals of the rose. This seems more clear when looking at the left side.  I also considered the length and deep curvature of the woven unit title on the shoulder straps.

 

Furthermore, the two regiments whose RHQ and training depot was in Preston at that time were as stated above and it would be unusual I think for the soldier to be from one of the regiments that had white facings and POW feathers as a collar badge:

 

1.  South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales Volunteers) Depot at Warrington.  Shoulder Title:  S.LANCASHIRE.  This is the Regiment whose collar badge looks most similar if the photo does indeed show POW feathers, especially when viewed in the horizontal .  In the images below it is the one with the curved unit title at the base of the feathers.

 

2.  West Yorkshire Regiment, Depot at Bradford.  Shoulder Title: W.YORK

 

3.  Welsh Regiment, Depot at Cardiff.  Shoulder Title: WELSH

 

NB.  Notwithstanding the above I’m looking only on a phone screen and others might be able to see better on a larger screen. 

 

Edited 22 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Hello Chris,

 

I did consider that and agree that on the right side as we look there is similarity to POW feathers, but after squinting at the other side I believe it’s an optical illusion caused by some reflective distortion and that what we are seeking are the upper petals of the rose. This seems more clear when looking at the left side.  I also considered the length and deep curvature of the woven unit title on the shoulder straps.

 

Furthermore, the two regiments whose RHQ and training depot was in Preston at that time were as stated above and it would be unusual I think for the soldier to be from one of the regiments that had white facings and POW feathers as a collar badge:

 

1.  South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales Volunteers) Depot at Warrington.  Shoulder Title:  S.LANCASHIRE.  This is the Regiment whose collar badge looks most similar if the photo does indeed show POW feathers, especially when viewed in the horizontal .  In the images below it is the one with the curved unit title at the base of the feathers.

 

2.  West Yorkshire Regiment, Depot at Bradford.  Shoulder Title: W.YORK

 

3.  Welsh Regiment, Depot at Cardiff.  Shoulder Title: WELSH

 

NB.  Notwithstanding the above I’m looking only on a phone screen and others might be able to see better on a larger screen. 

 

Hi FROGSMILE, 

I can see where you're coming from, but I can see POW feathers on both badges, sorry

 

Chris

[trooper23]

Have to say I immediately thought POW feathers when I saw the unenhanced picture.

Would the shoulder title be any help here? - Can we differentiate between an S for South and an E for East? 

[FROGSMILE]

Perhaps you are both right.  There is a similarity to the South Lancashire Regiment collar badge, the facings were also white and the shoulder title would match if S.LANCASHIRE.

 

The sticking point for me is the Preston location.  The two regiments based at the depot there are well documented and walking out of barracks was a privilege, especially for young recruits, as seems fairly likely in this case.  If he is South Lancashire Regiment he has to have either permission to walk out, and be able to get to Preston in a day and then reporting back to his parent unit barracks, through the guardroom in time for Tattoo (after which he would have been reported absent).  Beds were checked before lights out.  Alternatively, he would have had to be in possession of a leave pass for longer periods away from barracks (‘leave of absence’) and generally (at that time) only men with at least one good conduct badge (2-years service) were permitted to do that.

 

In 1898 the 1st Battalion South Lancashire Regiment were in Fermoy, Ireland, before deploying to the Boer War 1899-1902 and then moved to Jubbulpore, India.

 

In 1899 the 2nd Battalion South Lancashire Regiment were in Jubbulpore, India, and moved to Shorncliffe, England in 1903.

 

The Depot for the South Lancashire Regiment was in Warrington, as a minimum a train journey away, and I struggle to see how a young soldier could either afford a ticket, or get from there to Preston for a photo portrait and back to barracks in a day.  However, of all the options this seems the most likely scenario.

 

All of the above said, I agree that the collar badges look similar to, and might be, the South Lancs POW feathers.  Also, battalions earmarked for overseas duty would sometimes receive compulsory transfer from other regiments (often local) if their numbers had to be made up to full establishment quickly.  That might fit with a battalion needing men before deployment to South Africa for the Boer War.

Edited 23 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[trooper23]

Fantastic reply thanks

[Victoria Rose]

Hi again! After doing some ancestry research, I’ve determined this man could possibly be Michael Kenny, my great grandmothers brother. Is there anywhere online I can cross reference this information to determine if this could be him? I don’t have much to go on. According to ancestry, Michael Kenny I believe was born around 1877 in Bootle, Lancashire, England - which according to google maps is 45 min from Preston! 
Does anyone have any thoughts or ideas on this lead? Thank you so much!

Victoria