Blue Dragoon Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 This is a photo of the marriage in 1916 of William Edward Holmes DCM MM (1883–1958) and Amelia Ashmore (1886–1962) at Darlaston Staffordshire, England. I know all about William (1st KSLI) but want to know about the other soldier standing in this picture. Can any kind person identify his cap badge? RAMC? This is the best resolution I can achieve I'm afraid. Many thanks for any help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 I would have expected him to have a Red Cross shoulder badge if RAMC. Googling RAMC cap badge it has the serpent and staff - what's in the picture could be it, but I'm not 100% convinced - the curve looks wrong to me (might just be the angle of it from the viewer, though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Dragoon Posted 20 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2019 (edited) Thanks Jane, it is close but I'm just not sure. The fact he's wearing a sword is intriguing me too. I cant see any pips or, frustratingly, his sleeves. It may be he is a warrant officer? He's clearly been serving pre-war with that medal ribbon too. Edited 20 February , 2019 by Blue Dragoon update Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 Hi Blue Dragoon, Do you have a copy of the marriage certificate, it's possible that the standing soldier was the best man who may have signed as a witness, then at least you may have a name to search on. Have searched the same photo on Ancestry comes up with "he is half brother to Edward" Front left Emma Burns Ashmore, front right name? but Edward Holme's mother, back row Elizabeth Ashmore. Regards Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 He is a RAMC WO1, a Red Cross can just be made out at the bottom of his left sleeve. See this thread Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 Certainly seems to be a RAMC pattern sword hilt. What is the significance of the grenade above the crossed rifles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 58 minutes ago, charlie2 said: a Red Cross can just be made out at the bottom of his left sleeve So it can! Well spotted. I reckon that is the correct cap badge too, in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 Hi All William's mother was Emma Holmes b.1859 Cinder Hill, Nottingham d.22nd July 1933, Darlaston, Staffs. m. John W Holmes 21st May 1877, Moxley, Staffs. 2nd marriage on 9th June, 1889 @ Darlaston, Staffs to Josiah Chorley b.19.10.1840 Eccleston, Lancashire. d. July 1907 253 Walsall Road, Darlaston, Staffs. SO........RAMC.....Surname ....Chorley...looking. Regards Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 (edited) I concur completely with charlie2. He is a RAMC WOI. It’s an unusual configuration but the crossed rifles and grenade are separate SAA badges showing qualification as a marksman and a bomber (hand grenade throwing). Edited 20 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, The Inspector said: Hi Blue Dragoon, Do you have a copy of the marriage certificate, it's possible that the standing soldier was the best man who may have signed as a witness, then at least you may have a name to search on. Have searched the same photo on Ancestry comes up with "he is half brother to Edward" Front left Emma Burns Ashmore, front right name? but Edward Holme's mother, back row Elizabeth Ashmore. Regards Barry 40 minutes ago, The Inspector said: Hi All William's mother (He was known as Edward) was Emma Holmes b.1859 Cinder Hill, Nottingham d.22nd July 1933, Darlaston, Staffs. m. John W Holmes 21st May 1877, Moxley, Staffs. 2nd marriage on 9th June, 1889 @ Darlaston, Staffs to Josiah Chorley b.19.10.1840 Eccleston, Lancashire. d. July 1907 253 Walsall Road, Darlaston, Staffs. SO........RAMC.....Surname ....Chorley...looking. Regards Barry "Half brother to Edward".......Can anyone identify the medal ribbons on the standing soldier? Edited 20 February , 2019 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 Is the one on the (our) right a DSO? And the one on the left a Queen's South Africa medal? Not a medal expert, just a couple of semi-informed guesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 I'd say King's and Queen's SA medals. Not a DSO on a WO. Other abbreviations are available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 Hi All The 1891 census shows Samuel K CHARLEY b.1881 Wednesbury, mother Emma b. "CROIDES" Hill should be Cinder Hill. His details have been transcribed incorrectly surname should be HOLMES .. This is William Edward Holmes step family. There are two soldiers in the RAMC 2nd Boer War 1899-1902 records, Pte. 8204 S. Holmes and L/Cpl SR Holmes 11841..... Samuel K Holmes is not with the family in 1901, can anyone find more details? Regards Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: It’s an unusual configuration but the crossed rifles and grenade are separate SAA badges showing qualification as a marksman and a bomber (hand grenade throwing). Isn't the official position described as upper arm? It may be that he has a badge on the right upper arm (unless it's a peculiarity of the photo) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 (edited) 57 minutes ago, The Inspector said: Hi All The 1891 census shows Samuel K CHARLEY b.1881 Wednesbury, mother Emma b. "CROIDES" Hill should be Cinder Hill. His details have been transcribed incorrectly surname should be HOLMES .. This is William Edward Holmes step family. There are two soldiers in the RAMC 2nd Boer War 1899-1902 records, Pte. 8204 S. Holmes and L/Cpl SR Holmes 11841..... Samuel K Holmes is not with the family in 1901, can anyone find more details? Regards Barry Looked at the 1891 census again and magnified it, Samuel K Charley (Holmes) should be Samuel R. MIC....S. R. Holmes Train Supply Stores RAMC awarded MSM Rank T/SM, Reg. No.11841 Gaz.1.1.18. Reg'd paper 0137/4238.....IS THIS THE MAN? MIC.... T/WO1 Samuel R Holmes 11841RAMC QMS. France 29.3.15. Brit/Vic/15 Star. ??Samuel Rowland Holmes baptised 12.10.1882, Walsall, Staffs, father John, mother Emma. Regards Barry Edited 20 February , 2019 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 (edited) 43 minutes ago, PhilB said: Isn't the official position described as upper arm? It may be that he has a badge on the right upper arm (unless it's a peculiarity of the photo) Yes I believe so Phil, Muerrisch (Grumpy) and I have commented about the grenade badges before. There were types for bombers and mortar men that looked similar, albeit in different colours, as I’m sure you know well, plus those used by RE SNCOs and Grenadier Guards. There is photographic evidence that there was some confusion as to how/where the skill at arms versions were to be worn. As the subject is an infantryman I don’t feel there’s any doubt that the badge relates to bombing, so I think he’s just wearing the badge in the wrong place. Edited 20 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 21 February , 2019 Share Posted 21 February , 2019 19 hours ago, charlie2 said: He is a RAMC WO1, a Red Cross can just be made out at the bottom of his left sleeve. See this thread Charlie Hi Charlie 2 Can you tell me if you agree, the man is Samuel Rowland Holmes, isn't that what we were asked to look for? Regards Barry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 21 February , 2019 Share Posted 21 February , 2019 5 hours ago, The Inspector said: Hi Charlie 2 Can you tell me if you agree, the man is Samuel Rowland Holmes, isn't that what we were asked to look for? Regards Barry. Barry, I‘m happy with 11841 Samuel Rowland Holmes. Awarded QSA bars Cape Colony, Paardeberg and Johannesburg & KSA & the two bars. The ribbons he is wearing in the photo are to my mind the QSA & KSA. The medals are on the Field Hospital and Bearer Coy, 2nd Cavalry Brigade roll. In the remarks column 6 General Hospital and 15 Brigade Company are recorded. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 21 February , 2019 Share Posted 21 February , 2019 Hi Charlie, Many thanks for the confirmation, it's nice to know. Regards Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Dragoon Posted 22 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2019 hello everyone A quick holding response. Many thanks to admin for re-assigning this post and for all the interest and responses from kind forum members. Let me take a few moments to consider the responses above and I'll take stock with another response shortly. Really grateful for the interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Dragoon Posted 22 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2019 On 20/02/2019 at 17:40, The Inspector said: Hi Blue Dragoon, Do you have a copy of the marriage certificate, it's possible that the standing soldier was the best man who may have signed as a witness, then at least you may have a name to search on. Have searched the same photo on Ancestry comes up with "he is half brother to Edward" Front left Emma Burns Ashmore, front right name? but Edward Holme's mother, back row Elizabeth Ashmore. Regards Barry Hi Barry, sadly I dont have a copy of the certificate but I get your thinking. I think the ancestry definition of 1/2 brother may be incorrect. It is more likely to be actual brother 11841 Samuel Rowland Holmes QMS as Charlie and Barry have kindly identified. None of his Chorley step brothers really fit the bill. 15 hours ago, charlie2 said: Barry, I‘m happy with 11841 Samuel Rowland Holmes. Awarded QSA bars Cape Colony, Paardeberg and Johannesburg & KSA & the two bars. The ribbons he is wearing in the photo are to my mind the QSA & KSA. The medals are on the Field Hospital and Bearer Coy, 2nd Cavalry Brigade roll. In the remarks column 6 General Hospital and 15 Brigade Company are recorded. Charlie This is an excellent find, very grateful many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Dragoon Posted 22 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2019 On 20/02/2019 at 21:34, The Inspector said: Looked at the 1891 census again and magnified it, Samuel K Charley (Holmes) should be Samuel R. MIC....S. R. Holmes Train Supply Stores RAMC awarded MSM Rank T/SM, Reg. No.11841 Gaz.1.1.18. Reg'd paper 0137/4238.....IS THIS THE MAN? MIC.... T/WO1 Samuel R Holmes 11841RAMC QMS. France 29.3.15. Brit/Vic/15 Star. ??Samuel Rowland Holmes baptised 12.10.1882, Walsall, Staffs, father John, mother Emma. Regards Barry More excellent finds for clarification!! Really grateful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Dragoon Posted 22 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2019 The medal index roll entry for Samuel has him detailed as 11841 T/WO1 Holmes MSM. Can I confirm this post nom abbreviation? Meritorious Service Medal?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Dragoon Posted 22 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2019 On 20/02/2019 at 21:34, The Inspector said: .S. R. Holmes Train Supply Stores RAMC awarded MSM Rank T/SM, Reg. No.11841 Gaz.1.1.18. Reg'd paper 0137/4238. Hi Barry can you give me the links to this detail? cheers george Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 February , 2019 Share Posted 22 February , 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Blue Dragoon said: The medal index roll entry for Samuel has him detailed as 11841 T/WO1 Holmes MSM. Can I confirm this post nom abbreviation? Meritorious Service Medal?? Yes, MSM relates to Meritorious Service Medal. There were for a long time very strict criterion for that award. A man had to already be in possession of the Long Service and Good Conduct Medal and the lengthy qualifying period meant that he had to be on the long service list (i.e. serving beyond a standard engagement), which severely restricted the pool of eligibility. So unfair was this that the terms were eventually revised. I hope that helps. Edited 22 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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