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Remembered Today:

What plane did this wreckage come from?


Jools mckenna

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The writing on the back says its a French plane but the roundel looks more like the early war RNAS roundel. if it is the RNAS roundel it would have only been used between " October 1914 until it was decided to standardise on the RFC roundel for all British military aircraft in June 1915."

(Also, the body in the foreground is the observer according to the writing on the back.)

s-l1600 (21).jpg

Edited by Jools mckenna
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There isn’t much to go on but it looks like there is a lot of wing and no/little fuselage so I would suspect a Farman of some kind - maybe a Longhorn as that looks like it had very scalloped trailing edges to the wings.  Did the RNAS have any?  Pity the card doesn’t have any dates.  I can’t see any centre to the roundel either though possibly there is some fabric obscuring it - but wouldn’t they have been able to tell nationality from the uniforms of the crew?

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1 hour ago, Jools mckenna said:

The writing on the back says its a French plane but the roundel looks more like the early war RNAS roundel. if it is the RNAS roundel it would have only been used between " October 1914 until it was decided to standardise on the RFC roundel for all British military aircraft in June 1915."

(Also, the body in the foreground is the observer according to the writing on the back.)

s-l1600 (21).jpg

Hi

Another option for type is the Caudron G.3, that too has scalloped trailing edges and very little fuselage.  I think it is more likely to be a French service aeroplane, the blue centre in BW photos of the roundel tends to be much fainter and is seen to almost disappear in some published images.

 

Mike

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5 minutes ago, MikeMeech said:

I think it is more likely to be a French service aeroplane, the blue centre in BW photos of the roundel tends to be much fainter and is seen to almost disappear in some published images.

 

 
27 minutes ago, pierssc said:

There isn’t much to go on but it looks like there is a lot of wing and no/little fuselage so I would suspect a Farman of some kind - maybe a Longhorn as that looks like it had very scalloped trailing edges to the wings.

1

Thanks, when it arrives I will have a closer look at that roundel (the picture isn't a scan and is the sellers photo of a photo.)

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15 minutes ago, MikeMeech said:

Hi

Another option for type is the Caudron G.3, that too has scalloped trailing edges and very little fuselage.  I think it is more likely to be a French service aeroplane, the blue centre in BW photos of the roundel tends to be much fainter and is seen to almost disappear in some published images.

 

Mike

 

I'm in agreement with Mike, especially as the Caudron G.3 featured a tapered trailing edge to the outer ends of the top main-plane - something that the machine in the image seems to have.  However, the size of the machine i.e. the amount of wreckage, could point to it being a larger type - possibly a Maurice Farman MF.11.  Mike's comments regarding the blue centre to the cockade are certainly true - this being something that has confused many people over the years.

Edited by pete-c
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4 minutes ago, pete-c said:

 

 

Thanks, Pete.

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Is there any way of finding out what uniform the observer is wearing? 

s-l1600 (24).jpg

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Almost certainly a Caudron G.3. The wing ribs, 46 across the span, and the single surface fabric covering of the rear half of the wing are quite distinguishable in the photo.

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I am sure it is a French two-engined Caudron G IV with a wing span of 56 feet (not G.3), shot down by the Germans in 1916. The Caudron G IV first flew in March 1915. The RNAS had some in service, but were not considered a success

 

Jagow.

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28 minutes ago, Eaglesnest said:

I am sure it is a French two-engined Caudron G IV with a wing span of 56 feet (not G.3), shot down by the Germans in 1916. The Caudron G IV first flew in March 1915. The RNAS had some in service, but were not considered a success

 

Jagow.

The number on the pickelhaube probably makes it 1915 as the numbers were taken off in 1916 but I'm happy to be corrected. 

Edited by Jools mckenna
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1 minute ago, GreyC said:

The numbers on the helmcovers were ordered to be taken off in October 1916, so the photo could well have been taken in 1916, too.

GreyC

Thanks, grey. I wasn't sure of the exact month but I do now.

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I looked into my archives and have some more information to add to this photo.

 

It is a Caudron G IV shot down on the 3rd July 1916 at Juvincourt, by Vzfw. Werner Richard, KEK Ost ( Saint-Erme). The plane most likely

came from Escadrille C 30, with crew Sgt. Charles Hardoin (KIA) and Sgt. L.M. Schwanders (WIA). Richard flying a Fokker IV.

 

/Jagow

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17 minutes ago, Eaglesnest said:

I looked into my archives and have some more information to add to this photo.

 

It is a Caudron G IV shot down on the 3rd July 1916 at Juvincourt, by Vzfw. Werner Richard, KEK Ost ( Saint-Erme). The plane most likely

came from Escadrille C 30, with crew Sgt. Charles Hardoin (KIA) and Sgt. L.M. Schwanders (WIA). Richard flying a Fokker IV.

 

/Jagow

Jagow that's great, thanks so much. It's nice to get the story behind it and possibly identity the dead airman in the foreground. But ,if it's ok to ask, how do you know this is the correct plane?

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Identifying it by other photos, and having knowledge about early Fokker units and their whereabouts.

Putting things together. But a great help this time was the information given by Johan Ryheul in his book

KEKs and FOKKERSTAFFELS.:)

 

/Jagow

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Thanks Jagow.

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2 hours ago, Jools mckenna said:

Jagow that's great, thanks so much. It's nice to get the story behind it and possibly identity the dead airman in the foreground. But ,if it's ok to ask, how do you know this is the correct plane?

Hi

 

The relevant page in Ryheul's book is 111, although the similar photo on the page state it as Werner Richard's victory on 3 July 1916 the text states that it 'probably' came from C30 with Hardoin KIA and Schwanders WIA. In the book 'The French Air Service War Chronology 1914-1918' by Bailey and Cony, page 57, has for the same date a Caudron from C11 as 'possibly' the aircraft brought down by Richard.  The crew on this aircraft were Lt. Ciccoli and Lt. Angot, both WIA, and not the one from C30.  This means that while the aircraft in the image may well be the Caudron from C30, as we have a body, it might not be the one brought down by Richard as the difference of opinion by the authors in these books appears to imply. 

 

Mike

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Ok, thanks Mike.

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After closer inspection with a magnifying glass, the man in black(not the one with a picklehaube) has googles on his cap. Would this mean anything? I know the back of the postcard mentioned a pilot.

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Here is a translation from a French source:

 

 

"It is aboard a Caudron G4 that the pilot François Ciccoli and Eugène Angot, observer, are shot down during their mission of reconnaissance":

 

"I was taken prisoner on the offensive of the Somme, July 3, 1916. I had to fight, that evening, against three German planes.

I got rid of one of them; I was hurt by the others, my pilot too, and we fainted.

The aircraft remained from the height of 2,200 meters to 200 without any direction.

How could we save ourselves? That's what I do not know yet. I only know that at 200 meters from the ground my pilot regained his senses, and I, touching ground, but in the enemy lines. "

 

/Jagow

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Thanks Jagow. 

( @Cnock  I seem to have an identical postcard to one of yours.)

Edited by Jools mckenna
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