cojanis Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 My Grandfather, George Harper, served in the Royal Irish Rifles and his regimental number 5/9929, 7006511 and mentioned in another document 2 R.I.R. 5/9929 Rfm. My question can you tell me what battalion he was in. He was had a tour in the Middle East and was a prisoner-of-war but I don't know where. . He received four metals and have attached two pages of the medals that my uncle/his son sent to me: (1) Victory Medal; (2) medal from his tour in Middle East because it read Iraq under the ribbon and the medal; (3) a silver medal with the bust of George V on one side and on the other side is a man on a horse; and the last one is gold with crossed sword with a wreath on one side and on the other side is 9929 (line 1), - I cannot read - Harper (line 2), and Royal Irish Rifles (line 3). I am sorry that I don't have much more information for you. Thank you, Janis George Harper - Medals.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbem Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 Hi and welcome HERE is the medal roll on Ancestry. Looks like 2nd Battalion regards Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbem Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 and HERE is the Medal Index Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 16 February , 2019 Share Posted 16 February , 2019 (edited) Hi Janis, Welcome to the Forum. Looking at your PDF, the medals are (left to right): The George V, General Service Medal - the clasp indicates the qualification was by virtue of serving at Ramadi or north of a line east and west through Ramadi between 10 December 1919 and 13 June 1920, or as part of an establishment within Iraq between 1 July and 17 November 1920. His 7006511 service number relates to a general renumbering of the army in 1920, and falls within the number block allocated to the Royal Irish Rifles - see here. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th medals are the Victory Medal, the British War Medal, and the 1914/15 Star - see here. Curiously, his Medal Index Card (linked by Jon in post#3) isn't annotated to show an award of the 14/15 Star; and I didn't find him in the relevant medal roll. His British War & Victory medal roll record (as linked by Jon in post #2) indicates that his WW1 overseas service was entirely with the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Irish Rifles. though the '5/' prefix to his 9929 number intimates that at one time he was with the 5th Battalion.. 22 hours ago, cojanis said: He was … a prisoner-of-war but I don't know where. The Red Cross have a couple of records which can be linked to (using the 'PA' and 'R' numbers shown) from this index card. He seems to have been taken PoW on 24.3.1918, been at/administered by Stendal Camp ( prisoncmapofmain00poperich.pdf ), and repatriated 0n 24.11.1918. The battalion war diary for March 1918 is here at the National Archives, or here on Ancestry. The 107 Infantry Brigade HQ diary is here, or here. The 36 Division HQ (General Staff) diary is here, or here. There is help on reading map references here. There is help on how to research a soldier here. Good luck. Chris Edited 16 February , 2019 by clk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 17 February , 2019 Share Posted 17 February , 2019 Hello Janis, and welcome to the Forum! The medals in your PDF are in the reverse order. They should be Star, War Medal, Victory Medal and General Service Medal. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 17 February , 2019 Admin Share Posted 17 February , 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, clk said: Curiously, his Medal Index Card (linked by Jon in post#3) isn't annotated to show an award of the 14/15 Star; and I didn't find him in the relevant medal roll. Probably because his enlistment in the R.I.R. 5th (Extra Reserve) Battalion based on surviving service records dates from between 17th October (5/9858) - 18th November 1916 (5/9986) so could not have served in a theatre of war in 1914/15, therefore no entitlement to the 14-15 Star. A date of birth may help to indicate when he was posted to the BEF. If he continued to serve after 1920 his son, as next of kin could make application to the MOD for his service record at the cost of £30 https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records It would appear he remained in the Army after repatriation and was posted back to the 2nd Battalion who were sent to Iraq in 1919. Ken Edited 17 February , 2019 by kenf48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cojanis Posted 17 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2019 On 15/02/2019 at 15:12, jonbem said: and HERE is the Medal Index Card Thank you, Jonbem. Janis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cojanis Posted 17 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2019 On 16/02/2019 at 12:12, clk said: Hi Janis, Welcome to the Forum. Looking at your PDF, the medals are (left to right): The George V, General Service Medal - the clasp indicates the qualification was by virtue of serving at Ramadi or north of a line east and west through Ramadi between 10 December 1919 and 13 June 1920, or as part of an establishment within Iraq between 1 July and 17 November 1920. His 7006511 service number relates to a general renumbering of the army in 1920, and falls within the number block allocated to the Royal Irish Rifles - see here. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th medals are the Victory Medal, the British War Medal, and the 1914/15 Star - see here. Curiously, his Medal Index Card (linked by Jon in post#3) isn't annotated to show an award of the 14/15 Star; and I didn't find him in the relevant medal roll. His British War & Victory medal roll record (as linked by Jon in post #2) indicates that his WW1 overseas service was entirely with the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Irish Rifles. though the '5/' prefix to his 9929 number intimates that at one time he was with the 5th Battalion.. The Red Cross have a couple of records which can be linked to (using the 'PA' and 'R' numbers shown) from this index card. He seems to have been taken PoW on 24.3.1918, been at/administered by Stendal Camp ( prisoncmapofmain00poperich.pdf ), and repatriated 0n 24.11.1918. The battalion war diary for March 1918 is here at the National Archives, or here on Ancestry. The 107 Infantry Brigade HQ diary is here, or here. The 36 Division HQ (General Staff) diary is here, or here. There is help on reading map references here. There is help on how to research a soldier here. Good luck. Chris CLM, thank you so much. I have a question: once a PoW is released, how long before he returns to his unit (I know it would depend on the soldier's condition.)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cojanis Posted 17 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2019 5 hours ago, kenf48 said: Probably because his enlistment in the R.I.R. 5th (Extra Reserve) Battalion based on surviving service records dates from between 17th October (5/9858) - 18th November 1916 (5/9986) so could not have served in a theatre of war in 1914/15, therefore no entitlement to the 14-15 Star. A date of birth may help to indicate when he was posted to the BEF. If he continued to serve after 1920 his son, as next of kin could make application to the MOD for his service record at the cost of £30 https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records It would appear he remained in the Army after repatriation and was posted back to the 2nd Battalion who were sent to Iraq in 1919. Ken Ken, George's birthdate is 15 November 1898 (he was born in Gilford). I will send the link to George's son. Thank you, Janis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 17 February , 2019 Admin Share Posted 17 February , 2019 Accepting he may have added a few months to his age on enlistment if he told the truth it means he enlisted aged eighteen. The Army did not send men on active service overseas until aged nineteen. (The exception was after April 1918, but not relevant here as he was captured during the German Spring Offensive). Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cojanis Posted 17 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2019 8 minutes ago, kenf48 said: Accepting he may have added a few months to his age on enlistment if he told the truth it means he enlisted aged eighteen. The Army did not send men on active service overseas until aged nineteen. (The exception was after April 1918, but not relevant here as he was captured during the German Spring Offensive). Ken Ken, we were under the assumption that he lied about his age when he enlisted. Would George or any soldier have just done training until he was 19 years old when they were shipped overseas? Was 19 years old that a man could enlisted? My other grandfather, who served on the German side, was also a PoW. Is there a way that I could find out if he was captured by the British? Janis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 17 February , 2019 Admin Share Posted 17 February , 2019 9 minutes ago, cojanis said: Ken, we were under the assumption that he lied about his age when he enlisted. Would George or any soldier have just done training until he was 19 years old when they were shipped overseas? Was 19 years old that a man could enlisted? My other grandfather, who served on the German side, was also a PoW. Is there a way that I could find out if he was captured by the British? Janis In the absence of a service record it’s impossible to be certain. Looking at the surviving records there is evidence that men enlisted significantly under age around this time and were ‘weeded out’. Eighteen was the conscription age under the Military Service Act 1916 which did not apply to Ireland. He may have added a few months to his age, or even a year. Training was twelve weeks so the earliest he could have gone to France was February/March 1917. Typically eighteen year old recruits received further training, e.g Machine Gun Corps, or were posted to a home service unit until they became of age, this posting would not usually appear on the Medal Rolls. There is a guide at TNA http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/prisoners-of-war-british-hands/ but WW1 Records are scarce Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cojanis Posted 19 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2019 On 17/02/2019 at 14:33, kenf48 said: In the absence of a service record it’s impossible to be certain. Looking at the surviving records there is evidence that men enlisted significantly under age around this time and were ‘weeded out’. Eighteen was the conscription age under the Military Service Act 1916 which did not apply to Ireland. He may have added a few months to his age, or even a year. Training was twelve weeks so the earliest he could have gone to France was February/March 1917. Typically eighteen year old recruits received further training, e.g Machine Gun Corps, or were posted to a home service unit until they became of age, this posting would not usually appear on the Medal Rolls. There is a guide at TNA http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/prisoners-of-war-british-hands/ but WW1 Records are scarce Ken Thank you, Ken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Taylor Posted 10 April , 2019 Share Posted 10 April , 2019 (edited) Hi Janis, He was born at Gilford, Co. Down, 15.11.1898, the son of George and Sarah Jane Harper nee Quinn. Machine boy. He enlisted as 5/9929 in 5th RIR 8.11.1916 and served with 2nd RIR in the BEF from 12.3.1918. Repatriated 27.11.1918. Discharged at Rugeley Camp 5.3.1919. Address Stromore Road, Gilford. He was then aged 20 years 4 months. Re-enlisted the following day, number 7006511. Served in Mesopotamia 18.9.1919 to 23.5.1921. Discharged 5.6.1921 (Fold 3) or 1922 (RUR Register). I see no reason why he received the 1914-15 Star except by an error. All the best, Jimmy Edited 10 April , 2019 by Jimmy Taylor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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