patvnz Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 Hello all, These pics are of my Irish grandad who I believe served in the 1st World War. I am unsure if it was in the regular British army or some sort of special reserve. Is there anyone out there who could possibly help identify the uniform he's wearing here and help me out please? I've uploaded a few in an effort to get a clearer image Many thanks! Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 15 February , 2019 Admin Share Posted 15 February , 2019 His name would be a great help. Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 The uniforms and unique cuff buttons look like Scottish Horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 For what it's worth, that was my first thought too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 (edited) I don’t think that they are Scottish Horse, something’s not quite right. I believe they are more likely to be early members of Ireland’s ‘Civic Guard’ (later reformed as the Garda), the successors to the Royal Irish Constabulary after the creation of the Irish Free State. Note in particular the three buttons on the cuffs of the more junior ranks in these group photos. Such a button arrangement was not a feature of any Special Reserve Army uniforms. Edited 16 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Hall Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 Just an observation, but the sticks they are carring are walking sticks, not the usual swagger stick or whip. Plus, they are not wearing puttees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Garrett Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 The belt buckle your grandad is wearing look the same as those worn in the group photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patvnz Posted 15 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 15 February , 2019 Definitely Irish - no Scottish connections whatsoever. I'm told he may have served in some kind of 'special reserve', although we have no proof. We think this would have been taken circa 1904 though.He was in Limerick/Cork at the time. Name Edmond Brunnock. In 1911 one of his children died and on the death certificate it says 'son of soldier' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 I presume this is him in 1911 as a special reservist rather than a regular. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 In 1901 Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 (edited) He might well have been a special reservist (before 1908 known as the Militia), but the uniform in the photo is not Army. His likely regiment was the Royal Munster Fusiliers, given his home place. The regimental training depot was at Tralee. The 3 cuff buttons are key and make it very likely that the photo is just post WW1 and of two Civic Guard men. The Civic Guard did not wear collar badges whereas the later Garda did, but they did have three buttons on each cuff. The Militia and its replacement the Special Reserve paid its members an annual stipend that rural men in particular found very attractive. In Ireland the Militia had a strong tradition as there were no Volunteer Battalions of the regular regiments that recruited there and so the Militia were the only auxiliary infantry. I suspect that as Edmond was no longer able to be in the Special Reserve after the creation of the Irish Free State he missed the income and so joined the Civic Guard. Edited 15 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patvnz Posted 15 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 15 February , 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, ss002d6252 said: I presume this is him in 1911 as a special reservist rather than a regular. Craig Yes this is definitely my grandad on this census. So - would this 'special reserve' have been a part time army position do you think? And is the uniform he's wearing in the photo at odds with this position,or confirmation? I'm getting a bit lost, LOL Edited 15 February , 2019 by patvnz typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 (edited) On 15/02/2019 at 20:35, patvnz said: Yes this is definitely my grandad on this census. So - would this 'special reserve' have been a part time army position do you think? And is the uniform he's wearing in the photo at odds with this position,or confirmation? I'm getting a bit lost, LOL To recap: 1. It’s definitely not an Army uniform in the photo, but very likely the Irish Civic Guard formed to replace the Royal Irish Constabulary AFTER the First World War. The Civic Guard later became the Garda. 2. In the pre-war census where he was listed as being in the Special Reserve, which was a part-time auxiliary part of the British Army, his regiment would have been the Royal Munster Fusiliers, the regiment that recruited from Limerick and Cork. Edited 17 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patvnz Posted 16 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2019 On 16/02/2019 at 00:55, FROGSMILE said: He might well have been a special reservist (before 1908 known as the Militia), but the uniform in the photo is not Army. His likely regiment was the Royal Munster Fusiliers, given his home place. The regimental training depot was at Tralee. The 3 cuff buttons are key and make it very likely that the photo is just post WW1 and of two Civic Guard men. The Civic Guard did not wear collar badges whereas the later Garda did, but they did have three buttons on each cuff. The Militia and its replacement the Special Reserve paid its members an annual stipend that rural men in particular found very attractive. In Ireland the Militia had a strong tradition as there were no Volunteer Battalions of the regular regiments that recruited there and so the Militia were the only auxiliary infantry. I suspect that as Edmond was no longer able to be in the Special Reserve after the creation of the Irish Free State he missed the income and so joined the Civic Guard. Interesting info thanks!! I came across this article which talks about the reserves in connection with the Munster Fusiliers. I'm thinking that as Edmond's picture shows a Civic Guard uniform and with your input on its date being around the end of the war, that he must have left the Special Reserves before the war started, or he would surely have been called up? I know that in 1915 he was home in Ireland as that's when he married my gran and they had children in the years immediately following so he was always on Irish soil. Special Reserves Limerick 1911.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 16 February , 2019 Share Posted 16 February , 2019 (edited) 44 minutes ago, patvnz said: Interesting info thanks!! I came across this article which talks about the reserves in connection with the Munster Fusiliers. I'm thinking that as Edmond's picture shows a Civic Guard uniform and with your input on its date being around the end of the war, that he must have left the Special Reserves before the war started, or he would surely have been called up? I know that in 1915 he was home in Ireland as that's when he married my gran and they had children in the years immediately following so he was always on Irish soil. Special Reserves Limerick 1911.pdf Yes it’s possible that he either left the Special Reserve, or was too old, or unfit to deploy, although it’s also important that you understand that for political reasons there was no conscription (call up) in Ireland, unlike in Britain. Some men served only at home, so he might have been one of a few who did that. He would unquestionably have been in the Royal Munster Fusiliers for the length of time that he was in the Special Reserve, as just like it’s predecessors the Militia, all its units (battalions) were localised to the regiment’s recruitment areas, and the regimental depot at Tralee. Edited 17 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patvnz Posted 17 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2019 this mention of Tralee is very interesting - as I have a picture of my Uncle in uniform but this is dated 1946 Tralee. Presumably this would be a later enlistment into the RMF? Are you able to tell from his uniform in the pic? I did post this on a forum which had an expert in insignia etc but he seemed unable to say for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 February , 2019 Share Posted 17 February , 2019 (edited) That’s the uniform of an infantryman in the “Defence Force” of independent Ireland (at first titled the “Irish Volunteers”). The barracks at Tralee was taken over from the British in 1922 and at the same time Six of the Ten Irish regiments were disbanded, including the RMF, leaving just the four that recruited partially or wholly in Northern Ireland, which remained a part of the United Kingdom. I read recently that it was estimated that 50% of the Irish Volunteers / Defence Force of the Irish Free State were former members of the RMF when it was first created. There was a period during the late 1920s onwards when the Irish Defence Force uniform became alarmingly German looking, but by the late 1940s it had returned to its (original 1922) more British appearance. The unit in your photo appears to be either the 15th or 13th infantry battalion according to the small circle with number on his collar. 15 Infantry Battalion (1924-1928, 1941-1946) then disbanded. 13 Infantry Battalion (1924-1929, 1940-1959) then disbanded. You can read about Ballymullen Barracks, Tralee, which was still in use until recently, here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymullen_Barracks Edited 20 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patvnz Posted 19 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2019 Oh wow thank you so much!! Ive had that pic for years and always wondered..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 February , 2019 Share Posted 19 February , 2019 (edited) 43 minutes ago, patvnz said: Oh wow thank you so much!! Ive had that pic for years and always wondered..... To say that Ireland’s history is complex is an understatement of epic proportions. The constitution of 1937 renamed the Irish Free State as Ireland. In 1949 it explicitly became a republic under the terms of the Republic of Ireland Act 1948, definitively ending its tenuous membership of the British Commonwealth. You can relate these events, along with the infamous 1922 ‘Treaty’ and subsequent Irish Civil War, with the events in Edmond’s family. Edited 19 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patvnz Posted 20 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2019 OK - some more thoughts on dating here..... I was told my a researcher in Dublin that members of the Special Reserve were not allowed to serve in their home county or that of their wife. If this is correct it fits with the census entry of 1911 saying Special Reserve and residing in Co. Cork. Prior documents to that date were all located in Limerick. So...I am taking a leap of faith here and assuming he signed up in 1911 and I believe the enlistment duration was 6 years? Would it be a sensible conclusion here to assume that he went straight from the Special Reserve into the Civic Guard around 1917? He would be 39/39 at that time which I believe would rule him out from further service after 40yrs of age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, patvnz said: OK - some more thoughts on dating here..... I was told my a researcher in Dublin that members of the Special Reserve were not allowed to serve in their home county or that of their wife. If this is correct it fits with the census entry of 1911 saying Special Reserve and residing in Co. Cork. Prior documents to that date were all located in Limerick. So...I am taking a leap of faith here and assuming he signed up in 1911 and I believe the enlistment duration was 6 years? Would it be a sensible conclusion here to assume that he went straight from the Special Reserve into the Civic Guard around 1917? He would be 39/39 at that time which I believe would rule him out from further service after 40yrs of age? 1. Yes I think it is very likely that the Special Reserve (and ‘Militia’ before that) were not to serve (i.e. be deployed) in their own County or their wive’s County. I explained to you that the Irish Militia (subsequently Special Reserve) had a very strong tradition in Ireland. This is because they were frequently ‘embodied’ (i.e. called out) either to support the Constabularies or Regular Army during insurrection (they were forces of the Crown) or to directly repel invasion, which latter they did when a French force invaded Ireland during the Napoleonic era. These auxiliary forces (Militia/Special Reserve) continued in existence until their parent regiments (e.g. Royal Munster Fusiliers) were ALL DISBANDED upon the creation of the Irish Free State in 1922. Cork, Limerick, Kerry and Clare were ALL recruiting areas for the Royal Munster Fusiliers, including it’s Special Reserve element (see recruiting poster that I enclosed above), so that has no bearing on the residential location of the Brunnock family. 2. As regards the Civic Guard, as I have mentioned several times they did not exist until after WW1 and so could not have been connected with the Brunnock family in 1917. The Civic Guard was formed in February 1922 by the government of the Irish Free State in order to replace the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC), which as a British Crown organisation had been tainted by its fierce conflict with Republican Irish agitators and armed insurrectionists over many decades. Formed from a mixture of ex-IRA men under instruction from experienced former RIC men the Civic Guard had a short and fractious existence and was replaced in August 1923 by a new police force titled the ‘Garda’ which largely ceased to employ any former RIC men. 3. From what forum member ‘museumtom’ has unearthed above, it would seem that the Civic Guard man in the photo that opened this thread might not be Edmond unless it was an entirely different Edmond Brunnock that joined the US Army in the latter part of WW1. It thus ‘might’ be that Edmond left the Special Reserve (an auxiliary element of the British Army) after his 6-year engagement and emigrated to the United States, where after a short period he enlisted in the US Army, deployed to France, and was killed in the latter stages of the war. Edited 20 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patvnz Posted 20 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2019 The Edmond that Museumtom mentioned was not my grandad - but I do know of his existence via my research - he came from the same general area as my family. Superb hunting out of details though museumtom - so thanks!! I'm just concerned that you note his uniform as Civic Guard and yet that places him around 1922 (if I'm reading you correctly by what you've identified in the said uniform). That would have made him 43 years old. This photo was given to a lady who he knew around 1904 as a memento so I'm completely confused, LOL. Hence the focus on dating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 (edited) 22 hours ago, patvnz said: The Edmond that Museumtom mentioned was not my grandad - but I do know of his existence via my research - he came from the same general area as my family. Superb hunting out of details though museumtom - so thanks!! I'm just concerned that you note his uniform as Civic Guard and yet that places him around 1922 (if I'm reading you correctly by what you've identified in the said uniform). That would have made him 43 years old. This photo was given to a lady who he knew around 1904 as a memento so I'm completely confused, LOL. Hence the focus on dating! It’s good that you can rule out the Edmond that museumtom unearthed as that narrows things down. For what it’s worth I’m 100% certain that the photo shows two Civic Guard men. The ‘scalloped’ chest pocket flaps, combined with the style of the rectangular frame waist belt buckles, the three buttons on the cuffs AND the absence of a collar badge are all key identifiers of the Civic Guard uniform. It is categorically not a British Army Special Reserve uniform. The dates for the existence of the Civic Guard are as I have given them and a matter of public record. The man on the right with arrow pointing at his head could easily be 43 years old in my opinion and based on my experience of serving in an all male, uniformed regiment for several decades. Footnote: You should note that each of the British Army’s Irish Regiments had two, or in some cases three Special Reserve battalions, in addition to their two ‘Regular’ battalions. I can find out for you where the RMF Special Reserve battalions barracks and HQs were (in addition to the regimental depot at Tralee) if you wish to know? Before July 1881 they had been entirely independent units based in Cork, Kerry and Limerick, and after that date became the 3rd, 4th and 5th battalions of the RMF. Edited 21 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patvnz Posted 20 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2019 Oh yes please, if you could find out I would be ever so grateful. And I really appreciate all this information you have already given me - it really is enabling me to see my grandad in a fuller light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patvnz Posted 21 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2019 (edited) I found a website here below showing uniform details (policehistory NI.com) but it is referencing the south and the establishment of the Civic Guard there. It shows collar badges on this uniform though. Wondering if the Guard started without them and then added the badges in 1923 when it was renamed to Garda Síochána? http://policehistoryni.com/garda-siochana-uniform.html also this one below from 1926 Cork shows the collar badges , so I'm wondering if things changed from the very first uniforms of 1922 which might help date my picture? Or am I barking up the wrong tree? Edited 21 February , 2019 by patvnz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now