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josh2345678

Ww1 german bayonet knot? Please help

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josh2345678

Would like some help to know more about this item  its grey with a read piping down it what regerment it's for thank you 

ww1germanswordknott _1_-800x600.JPG.jpg

ww1germanswordknott _4_-800x600.JPG.jpg

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Dave1418

Hi

due to the style with the enclose knot end I believe it's WW2, the WW1 ones have tassels at the end

regards 

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trajan

This is a portepee, not a troddel, and so no tassels! VERY broadly speaking, the portepee was used on swords, so for officers, the troddel was used on bayonets. I don't deal with these things (and portepees were used in WW2 also), and so best to do some googling if nobody comes up with anything else!

Edited by trajan

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josh2345678

Thank you for all your help 

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Dave1418

Portepees were also used on bayonets, there are several diagrams showing just that in manuals on the swords forum

regards

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trajan
10 hours ago, Dave1418 said:

Portepees were also used on bayonets, there are several diagrams showing just that in manuals on the swords forum...

 

And that is why I stressed "VERY broadly speaking...":thumbsup: 

They were also used on ceremonial daggers such as those worn by the 3rd Reich Red Cross guys and the police.... To be honest, I know very little about these things, but this looks to be aluminium thread which I think would make it a Weimar or WW2 one. But Germany was not the only country to use these - Turkey did also...

 

I am only offering my opinion in the hope that by boosting this thread up somebody more knowledgeable might chip in!!!B)

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Michael Haselgrove

Hi Josh,

I'm afraid Julian's expressed hope that someone more knowledgeable might chip in is not going to be fulfilled as I know next to nothing on this subject.  However, your question interested me and I have done a small amount of research.  

Firstly, to quote from "The German Army in the First World war" by Jurgen Kraus:

 

"The sword knot had been the most important sign of rank for officers and high-ranking NCOs - known as NCOs with Portepee - since the 18th century.  Traditionally, they were made of gold or silver thread interwoven with the regional colours.  The sword knot in its most recent form was a black leather strap with silver threads containing one thread of the regional colour and, suspended from it, a broad, dense framework of silver threads enclosing a centre in the regional colour.  The four kingdoms had their own colours, as did Hesse, Mecklenburg and Brunswick.  Baden, Oldenburg, Anhalt and the states of Thuringia used the Prussian red central strip on their leather strap.

The Bavarian sword knot differed in that it was more like the sabre tassel, having a round silver tassel on a silver ribbon with two light-blue stripes at the edges.  For mounted troops the ribbon was also lined with red Muscovy leather and attached to the tassel with wire.

Economy measures meant that after February 1917, instead of silver, aluminium thread was the only material allowed for sword knots.  In August of the same year production of sword knots ended for good".

 

There seems to be a huge variety of sword knots - they were available for private purchase - and it's impossible to be certain given none of the photos I have seen are that clear or illustrate a knot of a slightly different construction.  Looking at what you have it seems to me that the strap is leather?  I can't tell if it is made using silver or aluminium thread.  However, my guess is that you have a sword knot that was made between 1896, when that style was introduced, and August 1917.  The regional colour of the wearer was either Prussia or one of the other states mentioned above.  Dave1418 is quite correct when he mentions above that sword knots were worn on bayonets; indeed, I have a Bavarian one attached to a trench knife in my collection.  

The above may be incorrect but I hope it at least gives you a starting point for further research.

Regards,

Michael.

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josh2345678

It's a leather strap Michael 

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Michael Haselgrove

Josh,

Well, in that case I think it is probably a Prussian (or one of the other states mentioned above) sword knot made between 1896 and 1917 and, if Julian is right and the thread is aluminium, between Feb. and Aug. 1917.

Regards,

Michael.

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josh2345678

How could I tell if it's aluminium or silver.

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josh2345678

And would like to say thank you for all your help on this chat. 

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