aim Posted 18 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2019 On 16/02/2019 at 12:36, ARABIS said: You are most welcome. Attached is a photo of the WW1 trio, Messina Medal, and Constantinople Medal awarded to Colour Sergeant J. Pickering R.M.L.I. Thanks for the photo - a most interesting group! aim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aim Posted 18 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2019 Dear Keith History Buff, I don't think they are all on the Find my Past version of the medal roll - I couldn't see RMB 59 Carter, Henry, born 27th. January 1886. However, thanks for pointing out the existence of the roll - I am sure it will be more inclusive than the men's service records regarding Pip, Squeak and Wilfred. aim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aim Posted 18 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2019 Dear Sea Jane and 58 Div Mule, This looks like an awfully interesting book, but being out of print the price has risen! Perhaps my local library can find a copy for me to borrow. aim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 18 February , 2019 Share Posted 18 February , 2019 If you promise to send it back, I can lend you my copy ... [nervously] sJ Or there are a few copies round the country, so inter-library loan may work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aim Posted 20 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2019 On 14/02/2019 at 18:43, Coldstreamer said: I don't see the connection to ww1 sorry, this is what skindles is for Skindles appears to be a restaurant in Maidenhead, unless there's another one I don't know about........ aim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aim Posted 20 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2019 On 18/02/2019 at 23:23, seaJane said: If you promise to send it back, I can lend you my copy ... [nervously] sJ Or there are a few copies round the country, so inter-library loan may work. Apparently my local library can only get books on inter-library loan from other local libraries in Greater London. I have found used copies on the web from £32-80 to £310-79, and ordered a £32-80 one. Thank you for your amazingly kind offer, but i wouldn't dare upset a Lieutenant-General! aim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 I'm quite fluffy really. For a Lieutenant-General ... (Just checked, and that's equivalent to a Vice-Admiral RN. Coo.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 On 18/02/2019 at 21:37, aim said: Dear Keith History Buff, I don't think they are all on the Find my Past version of the medal roll - I couldn't see RMB 59 Carter, Henry, born 27th. January 1886. However, thanks for pointing out the existence of the roll - I am sure it will be more inclusive than the men's service records regarding Pip, Squeak and Wilfred. aim Hi, I get the impression that when Jack Marshall was compiling his medal roll, that he happened to come across obituaries for all those men that I mentioned, and that it was their obituaries that mentioned they were awarded the Messina medal. There are some useful notes on that roll, accessible via FMP. Thanks, Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 20 February , 2019 Share Posted 20 February , 2019 1 hour ago, aim said: Skindles appears to be a restaurant in Maidenhead, unless there's another one I don't know about........ aim It's an off ww1 topic discussion thread on this forum, you can ask anything there which is why I mentioned it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 14 September , 2023 Share Posted 14 September , 2023 Mates, Do you have a record of this sailor receiving this medal? TOPAL Henry James 404 Pte 1 LH Bde Trn 5Co AASC AAMC Medical Orderly att 1 AGH RTA MU cause not found? disch 22-9-15 MU relist AMC AN&NEF (591) Tos A/Cpl Rabaul 11-17 Ex ASect/3 FAmb (154) DNE worked in PNG post war later WWII Sgt NSW Recruiting (N101602) & (N87892) (mentioned captured by Japanese in PNG N/R?) AKA Henry James Issac Topal a Jewish soldier (British Royal Navy on "HMS Canopus" at Massina Earthquake 1908 and Somaliland 1909 5 years & RAMC TF 2 years) Dispenser 24 Brisbane Qld / Ashfield NSW Enl 9-9-14 11-6-17 RTA 10-6-15 RTA 25-3-18 NoK Stepney Green London UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 14 September , 2023 Share Posted 14 September , 2023 (edited) An interesting RN career 1907 to 1912, starting as a boy seaman and transferring to sick berth attendant in 1910. Discharged "Unfit" (Inferior Ability in rating) - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6741378 Served in ship's company of HMS CANOPUS April 1908 to December 1909 so, presumably, qualified (f he was landed) for Messina medal as stated. PS - CANOPUS did not qualify for the Somaliland 1908-1910 clasp to the Naval GS Medal.] PPS - After a check of the medal roll I do not think she qualified for Messina either. Edited 14 September , 2023 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 14 September , 2023 Share Posted 14 September , 2023 Thanks H, Possibly why he made no claim to these medals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domwalsh Posted 8 February Share Posted 8 February (edited) On 17/02/2019 at 10:54, 58 Div Mule said: Back to Wilson and Perkin's. 481 Marines from HMS Duncan, Euryalus, Exmouth, Lancaster, Minerva and Sutlej were issued the Messina Medal. 3,463 RN personnel from the same ships also received the award. From my notes a number of marines awarded the Messia Medal were killed during the Great War, I've given the names of four from HMS Sutlej in post #20 above. Ch11534 Cpl Eldridge T & Ch7356 Bugler Heffernan C were both killed during the Zeebrugge Raid of 23 April 1918. HMS Sutjej was acting as a Boys Training Ship and had on board 168 Boys 1st Class. No doubt these 17 year olds offered assistance to the people of Messina following the death of an estimated 160,000 people in the devastating earthquake of 28 December 1908. Here's a photo of CH7356 Bugler Charles HEFFERNAN RMLI wearing his Messina ribbon. He was, as you rightly say, killed in WW1. In fact, he was aboard the Iris in the Zeebrugge Raid and was MID for dealing with a fire on the upper deck and bravely removing ammunition from the vicinity of the fire. His original recommendation for a reward was listed among the CGM recommendations and is of a similar length, but sadly his death in the throes of taking his selfless action meant he was restricted to an MID (or a VC, of course). He was therefore MID although he did also have a notification on his record of service to the effect that he participated in the ballot for the VC won by Sgt Norman Finch. Edited 8 February by domwalsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 8 February Share Posted 8 February (edited) 1 hour ago, domwalsh said: He was therefore MID although he did also have a notification on his record of service to the effect that he participated in the ballot for the VC won by Sgt Norman Finch. @domwalsh How can this be? He was killed three days before the VC ballot took place at Deal. I can see no mention of the ballot on his ADM 159 ledger record which just states that he "took part in the attack". Was he, perhaps, one of those who received a vote (for a posthumous VC) in the ballot? I think he was not. In my view "participated" means he cast a vote (impossible). Although a bugler, he held the rank of Lance Corporal at Zeebrugge. Am I missing something? Edited 8 February by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domwalsh Posted 8 February Share Posted 8 February 1 minute ago, horatio2 said: @domwalsh How can this be? He was killed three days before the VC ballot took place at Deal. I can see no mention of the ballot on his ADM 159 ledger record which just states that he "took part in the attack". Was he, perhaps, one of those who received a vote (for a posthumous VC) in the ballot? In my view "participated" means he cast a vote (impossible). Although a bugler, he held the rank of Lance Corporal at Zeebrugge. Am I missing something? Apologies, I had it in my mind that his attestation papers noted his participation in the ballot, but that's not the case. However, you did not need to survive to get the notation. ALL participants in the raid were deemed to have participated in the ballot. The naval ballot was more complete in respect of noting such participation, probably because the navy had a stamp - much more efficient! Conversely, the marine ballot was a bit of a cock-up, and I have found numerous variants of the notation on their records of service. Many of those who survived did not receive the full notation. In fact, a small number of 4th Battalion men who were taken ill or otherwise couldn't go on the raid had the shorter "took part in the raid on Zeebrugge" erroneously added to their record, even though they never left Blighty. Some who took part got nothing. So "participated" does not mean he cast a vote. You're right. He was a Lance Corporal by the time Zeebrugge took place. Dom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 8 February Share Posted 8 February Dom, Many thanks for that explanation. The 4/RM ballot has long puzzled me and your research has revealed a can of worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domwalsh Posted 8 February Share Posted 8 February 5 minutes ago, horatio2 said: Dom, Many thanks for that explanation. The 4/RM ballot has long puzzled me and your research has revealed a can of worms. I can send you the full can of worms if you like. I wrote an article on it a while ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 8 February Share Posted 8 February That would be most helpful, Dom. A .pdf attached to a PM would be most convenient. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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