When is it a War Memorial or a Roll of Honour?

[jainvince]

The Littleborough Historical Society has been gifted a number of lists of fallen WW1 and WW2 soldiers on paper (including the Oddfellows Roll of Honour and a local chapel). We also have a local school where the names are painted of wood. There are also wood and stone carved memorials as well as a metal mamorial.

 

In including where service personnel are remembered on websites, I refer to the school listing as a War Memorial but am questioning if there actually is a difference? And does it really matter? Perhaps there is a clear differential and if so, I would prefer to follow the convention.

 

Bernard

[David_Underdown]

Used fairly interchangeably at the time, a roll of honour may be more likely to include all those that served, or be a book etc rather than a large structure.

[Old Owl]

Hi Bernard,

I suspect that in the absence of a stone cross or other typical external war memorial for the school, then automatically the painted board within the school must become the school's war memorial.  It has to be the default position in such cases.

Something appears to have been removed from the lower face of this memorial--I wonder if it was a school crest or similar?

I doubt that there is a clear definition of what constitutes a war memorial, other than it must commemorate either those who died or served during that particular conflict.  Thus a war memorial could be either for an individual or a group of people.

Hope this helps,

Robert

[Guest]

 By chance I have recently seen an Oddfellows Roll of Honour, for Kilburn, which is a listing of those serving in 1915- the roll is a list of those members excused dues for the duration of the war. As it appeared to be a printed scroll, it makes me wonder just how many Oddfellows rolls there are out there.

   Again, the term "Roll of Honour" seems originally to have been those men serving and comes into use right at the start of the war. The Financial Times, for instance, printed a number of rolls of honour from the Autumn of 1914 and up to 1916 of those who had gone off to fight, listed by City firm and giving the regiment where serving (often highly inaccurate).  

[Old Owl]

7 minutes ago, David_Underdown said:

Used fairly interchangeably at the time, a roll of honour may be more likely to include all those that served, or be a book etc rather than a large structure.

 

I agree.  Although very often the listing of those who served (which often includes mention of those who died) is referred to as a Roll of Service. Thus it seems there is no set definition of either a war memorial or a roll of honour/roll of service.

Some printed memorials are referred to as a Memorial Volume or a Roll of Honour and generally include details of only those who gave their lives, however Edinburgh University produced a book entitled "Edinburg University, Roll of Honour 1914-18" which contains details of all members who either died or served and Aberdeen University produced a book entitled "Aberdeen

University, Roll of Service 1914-18", which again includes details of all members who either died or served.  Hence a disparity in interpretation by two Scottish Universities in the 1920's.

Basically you must refer to such memorials in the way you feel most comfortable with at the time--there is no right nor wrong way.

[rolt968]

In general a war memorial commemorates those who died.

 

A roll of honour in many (most?) cases means a list of those who served (also see roll of service), but in some cases the roll of honour is the list of those who died.

 

There are two types of rolls of honour (lists of those who served): Those created at the end of the war (the university RoHs mentioned above are of this type) and those created cummatlively (if there is such a word?) as the war went on.

 

Many of the church "cummalative" RoHs were started about the time of the first National Service of intercession on the first Sunday in 1915. In which case you may find that the first names listed are in alphabetical (or other) order - the names of the men serving when the RoH was started and then names were added as people joined up. I know of one such RoH where the there were so many additional names that there were too many for the proper space in the middle and they have been added in any odd corner.

 

Also on a RoH you may find some kind on indication (e.g. a cross) which indicates that the person had been killed.

 

RM

 

 

[Retlaw]

A Roll of Honour is what it says, a roll to mention all those who served, some have a small cross beside a name to denote those who did not return.  Some of our local Catholic Churchs had a separate Roll Of Glory denoting those who did not return, one of our churches has a Safe Return Roll of Honour. Bill Turner & I went round all the Churches, Schools, Pubs, & Clubs, and those that were being closed or no longer wanted them, we rescued and they are now in our local Libray.

I am making a proper Roll of Honour for my Borough, when I say proper its Full Name, Rank, Number. Regiment, Home Address, S.W.B. any MM's or DCM's, Fate and if Service Records are available, and where they are.

All 14220 Men Women & Boys, plus a picture of their face if I have one. When it's finished it will be about 450 pages.

Edited 12 February , 2019 by Retlaw

[BereniceUK]

Rolls of honour exist for the South Africa War 1899-1902.

 

[Marilyne]

Interesting question...

one could also ask the question: when is a building a memorial, when a chapel???

The Edinburgh War Memorial (in the castle) stands as MEMORIAL in most litterature and in my book, the Boyfriend ( a bit more inclined that way), sees it as a religious building (and annoys me with it in the same go, but that's another topic...)

 

M.

[Scalyback]

8 minutes ago, Marilyne said:

Interesting question...

one could also ask the question: when is a building a memorial, when a chapel???

The Edinburgh War Memorial (in the castle) stands as MEMORIAL in most litterature and in my book, the Boyfriend ( a bit more inclined that way), sees it as a religious building (and annoys me with it in the same go, but that's another topic...)

 

M.

 

It needs to be consecrated as a religious building? I thought it a memorial building that holds a roll of honour, like the Welsh one that is a bit spread out. 

 

https://www.library.wales/discover/digital-gallery/manuscripts/modern-period/the-welsh-national-book-of-remembrance/

 

Quote

Following a campaign in the Western Mail in the early 1920s, money was raised to build a Welsh National War Memorial. After much debate it was located in Cathays Park, Cardiff. No names listed on the monument itself, therefore the committee decided that a ‘roll of honour’ would be created, which became this Book of Remembrance.

 

To me the war memorial is any physical object(designated as such) with any list of names being a roll of honour. 

[Michael Pegum]

5 hours ago, Scalyback said:

To me the war memorial is any physical object(designated as such) with any list of names being a roll of honour. 

 

I feel this is too narrow a definition, since many war memorials bear lists of names. For me, a war memorial is one which commemorates those who were involved in the conflict, whether they died or not. There are several types of war memorial, including cenotaphs, crosses, plaques/tablets and documents in frames or books.

 

It is sometimes difficult to say what is, and what is not a war memorial. For example, memorials to:

 

someone who was on leave from active service during a war, and died in a road accident;

someone on active service who was killed in a training accident, but not during a war;

someone on active service during a war, who died of disease unrelated to the service;

someone on active service, but not during a war, who died of disease;

a serviceman/woman who died at home after retirement from the service.

 

I have come across memorials in all these categories, and count them as war memorials if the person involved was on active service at the time.

 

On a separate note, a random check of a dozen or so of the names on the memorial in the first post showed that they all appeared to have died. 79 deaths would suggest that about 400 to 800 past pupils of the school were involved in the war. It must have been a very large school.

 

Michael

[clivefarmer]

Greetings I am a volunteer researcher for The Imperial War Museum , working on identifying and recording war memorials . The IWM has a detailed definition of what it regards as a "War Memorial" but other organisations would probably work to their own standard . I suggest a useful working distinction , as regards a memorial which includes names (many of course do not ) is that a Roll of Honour lists both those who served and those who died , typically with those who died identified by a symbol against their name such as a cross .  If a listing does not have the description "Roll of Honour" in its title then it is more likely to list only those who died , If there is any confusion a quick check of sample names against the CWGC online database can usually clarify . The IWM has an online database which currently lists over 80,000 memorials  in the UK . One little known type of memorial is a family gravestone which commemorates those who are buried there and mentions a family member or members who died in conflict elsewhere .  With a wide variety and over 80,000 memorials on the IWM database there are bound to be differences of opinion  on what constitutes a "War Memorial " and what does not . If jainvince would be kind enough to post a brief listing of what his Historical Society has in its possession I would like to check  whether the IWM has all or any of them recorded . Our work is ongoing and newly identified memorials are being added regularly . Its also worth pointing out that the IWM also records any  names listed on memorials and the database(which currently has over a million names ) is searchable . I hope this is useful . Clive Farmer

[johnmelling1979]

On ‎12‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 23:41, Retlaw said:

A Roll of Honour is what it says, a roll to mention all those who served, some have a small cross beside a name to denote those who did not return.  Some of our local Catholic Churchs had a separate Roll Of Glory denoting those who did not return, one of our churches has a Safe Return Roll of Honour. Bill Turner & I went round all the Churches, Schools, Pubs, & Clubs, and those that were being closed or no longer wanted them, we rescued and they are now in our local Libray.

I am making a proper Roll of Honour for my Borough, when I say proper its Full Name, Rank, Number. Regiment, Home Address, S.W.B. any MM's or DCM's, Fate and if Service Records are available, and where they are.

All 14220 Men Women & Boys, plus a picture of their face if I have one. When it's finished it will be about 450 pages.

 

 

Hello Retlaw,

 

I'm the founder and only researcher ;P of www.claytonandwhittleatwar.co.uk (Clayton le Woods and Whittle le Woods near Chorley

We may have spoken before...

 

I have a few names associated with the Accrington and the Pals etc on my website .

 

Are you creating a website for those 14220 ?  Is that WW1 and WW2 , other wars

In the Borough... as it is in its modern state which I'm guessing is Hyndburn, Or as 

Or just a Book ? 

If so that's a big project !!! Similar to http://www.southribble-greatwar.com 

Obviously the work of William Turner lives on...

 

It will be interesting to see your work

 

All the best

 

John Melling

 

www.claytonandwhittleatwar.co.uk

 

[Retlaw]

Hi John. The Roll of Honour I'm creating was a side issue to the researching I was doing for Bills Accrington Pals, just before Bill died he asked me to keep the Pals alive, and how many casualties were there on July 1st/5t  Bill never knew, I went home and stayed up 24 hrs creating a file for him, and just as I'd finished his daughter rang to say he'd just died. In 2014 my eldest daughter said she was going to arrange a trip to France on July 1st  2016, so I dug out the file tarted it up, printed two copies had the specially bound with presentation boxes and they were presented to the Mayors of Bapaume & Puisiex by the Mayor & Mayoress of Accrington a 0730 hrs July first, 2016 so I fulfilled my promise to Bill. The Greater Acc (now Hyndburn) WW1 R-O-H is my own Idea, and no I don't do websites and anything I do print is on anti photocopy paper, there are too many tripe dressers who would just love to get there hands on my stuff just to boost their own ego's, one of whom has a web site with dozens an dozens of Original Pals missing, he claims its all his own work, Hu, where did he get all those Pals numbers from, I now have 567 names of men who served in the 11th E,Lan, who are not in Bills books, and of those in Bills book starting at page 212  41 of them are errors, I made contact with Fergus read and showed him, he admitted students had done it for him, he then gave me the originals. I just wish I could show Bill the men I've found who served in the 11th, &  My R-O-Hnr.

Si Thi

Lurch the S.U.I.B.

[John(txic)]

Echoing Clive's post above, there are many, many war memorials out there that are not on the IWM's Register.  You'd be surprised how many of your local war memorials are not listed.

 

Have a look here: https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/search - and if it's not there, take a few photos and submit it.

[jainvince]

Sorry about a delay in responding but in writing up the fallen heroes of WW2 for Milnrow, Littleborough and Milnrow, time just flies. Many interesting and informative replies, thanks.

 

The Littleborough Historical Society posts "Rolls of Honour" for WW1 https://www.littleboroughshistory.org/roh.html and for WW2 https://www.littleboroughshistory.org/ww2.html 

These are simply lists of the service men and woman (ww2) who were killed in each war. Our 2 Oddfellows Rolls of Honour are hand written (Calligraphy) and list all Brothers whe served. We have added their dates killed on an adjacent noticeboard. However, as the original was already faded we now include this in a dispay case with photographs of the fallen where we have one. There are two rolls, a State Section and a Voluntary Section and there is a date of 1915 but it still includes later brothers. In researching our WW1 heroes I visited Haslingden Library where two large Rolls of Honour are displayed on a wall.

 

As 'Old Owl' points out, there is a mark near the bottom of the Central School Memorial which I think is a storage/display weathering/damp or similar issue as no trace is otherwise observable. Their 'badge' was a shield given to the Society but now returned to the replacment Junior school. Our Ebenezer War Memorial actually refers to a separate Roll of Honour for the 24 who served.

 

Other than the Memorials/Rolls of Honour mentioned above the Littleborough Historical and Archaeological Society has the 'Hollingworth 'Tin' Church Roll of Honour' on paper, poor condition and over-written. It was rescued from the decaying church by a local farmer who offered it to the Society as otherwise it was to be binned! We have the Shore Primitive Methodist Chapel War Memorial made out of carved wood, Summit Ebenezer Chapel War Memorial cut in stone, a private memorial (stone) for Frederick Cheetham Taylor, Wesleyan Methodist Memorial - Central Panel listing the fallen, 2 side panels listing those who served including a couple of ladies (metal). Finally there is a small memorial or paper, schroll or display for Private Fred Mitchell who worked for the Littleborough Dyeing Company. This is printed on paper but may have been based on a widely available blank.

 

All of the War memorials or RoH were either gifted to us or more likely saved from skips when the buildings were being demolished or converted. Hard to believe in this day and age.

 

We still have worries about metal theives.   Bernard

Edited 17 February , 2019 by jainvince