Bayonet find

[Guest]

Morning all.

A friend of mine has taken a walk down in his mums house and come across this bayonet find. Can anyone tell me what it is from please.

it was found in the Village of Codford and during the war was home to the ANZACs. Also found with it was what looks like a postcard of sorts, any help on that would be great.

thanks in advance.

Matt

[Jools mckenna]

It's a Lee Metford bayonet.

[Dave66]

4 minutes ago, FubarStar said:

Morning all.

A friend of mine has taken a walk down in his mums house and come across this bayonet find. Can anyone tell me what it is from please.

it was found in the Village of Codford and during the war was home to the ANZACs. Also found with it was what looks like a postcard of sorts, any help on that would be great.

thanks in advance.

Matt

Hello Matt and welcome,

what a interesting thing to find, it's a P1888 bayonet, Mk1 type 2. Made in January 1898 (1 98), it has the Victorian crown and numerous inspection stamps, and was commonly used by British and colonial forces throughout the South African and Great War.

Sometimes these were regimentally stamped on the pommel...anything there that may help?

 

Dave.

[Waggoner]

A question for the bayonet collectors...how would you clean this up? There appears to be some pretty heavy rust.

 

All the best,

 

Gary

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

Hello Matt and welcome,

what a interesting thing to find, it's a P1888 bayonet, Mk1 type 2. Made in January 1898 (1 98), it has the Victorian crown and numerous inspection stamps, and was commonly used by British and colonial forces throughout the South African and Great War.

Sometimes these were regimentally stamped on the pommel...anything there that may help?

 

Dave.

Thank you, that’s great. I will pass it on to him.

[Dave66]

54 minutes ago, Waggoner said:

A question for the bayonet collectors...how would you clean this up? There appears to be some pretty heavy rust.

 

All the best,

 

Gary

If it were mine, just WD40 and fine wire wool, just to get at the worst, then leave as never going to be perfect...nice piece of history especially with the somewhat worn paperwork.

 

Dave.

[shippingsteel]

Those cardboard pieces appear to show the details of an Australian serviceman from the GW. Postmark shown is Melbourne, Victoria and I believe it is addressed to a member of an Australian Artillery Brigade with Regimental Number and Rank of Corporal shown, first name Charles.

 

EDIT. Could also show an Australian Infantry Brigade I guess, postcard is torn. Postmark appears to be dated 16/12/15. Xmas message perhaps.?

Edited 14 February , 2019 by shippingsteel

[shippingsteel]

OK with a very small amount of digging I believe I have a match for the chaps unit. With the scant details shown he COULD be a member of the 4th Australian Field Artillery Brigade, 12th Battery, Corporal Charles ?????? . This unit was raised in Melbourne in September 1915, embarked November 1915 so dates all match with postmark. By running the regimental number (3040?) through that unit I believe you could bring up his surname.

See this link below for unit history ...

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/U51114

Edited 14 February , 2019 by shippingsteel

[trajan]

What a fun find! Codford, for those not familiar with the archaeology of GB  it is on Salisbury Plain. No necessary association of course between card and bayonet - unless it was tied to it!

[shippingsteel]

Have found a POSSIBLE match for the soldier on the postcard. His name is Charles Hynes, unsure of his rank, but he enlisted in Melbourne Victoria with Service Number 3040, and had a wife that remained in Victoria (possible sender of card) 

Unit he was assigned was a mess (very common) but was originally 14th Infantry Battalion which later became the 46th Infantry Battalion. The 14th Battalion which was what he would have been with at time postcard was written was part of the 4th Infantry Brigade which seems to match with card.

https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/records/283783

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/U51454

[Dave66]

5 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

Have found a POSSIBLE match for the soldier on the postcard. His name is Charles Hynes, unsure of his rank, but he enlisted in Melbourne Victoria with Service Number 3040, and had a wife that remained in Victoria (possible sender of card) 

Unit he was assigned was a mess (very common) but was originally 14th Infantry Battalion which later became the 46th Infantry Battalion. The 14th Battalion which was what he would have been with at time postcard was written was part of the 4th Infantry Brigade which seems to match with card.

https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/records/283783

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/U51454

Sounds like a match given the circumstances, would Australian artillery have been issued with these P1888's....I have a few issued to both British A.S.C. and artillery which was quite common for the period.

[Chasemuseum]

Pte Hayne, was already in 46Bn several months before his unit travelled from Egypt to France, and his first hospital spell in England.

 

14th Bn AIF was part of 4th Brigade, as part of the 1st Division under the 4-battalion in a brigade x 4 Brigade structure. Very early on, the Division was reformed as a 4-battalion in a brigade x 3 brigade in the Division structure which remained the AIF structure throughout the war. The British Army by comparison moving rapidly from the pre-war 4x4 structure to the ultimate 3 x 3 structure.

 

After the AIF withdrawal from Gallipoli to Egypt, with very large numbers of reinforcements available in Egypt the existing battalions were split to form the new battalions of the new 4th and 5th AIF Divisions with combat experienced troops while all of these divisions (1, 2, 4 & 5) were brought to strength with reinforcements. Hence 46Bn 4Div had the old 14Bn as the parent unit. The new battalions used colour patches based on the patch of the parent unit.    

 

Haynes attested in 12 July 1915, recruited to 14th Bn, assigned to the 10th reinforcements, embarked for service outside Australia on 18th Oct 1915, arrived in Egypt 19th Jan 1916 (so no Gallipoli service) and was transferred to 46Bn 3rd March 1916. Arrived Marseilles France 8th June 1916. Moved by rail to the British sector and underwent various training, 5 July entered the line near Fleurbaix. Haynes was evacuated "sick" on the 15th and arrived in UK on the 19th.  

 

Given timing it is possible that he was still receiving mail addressed to his original unit, however with the very large numbers transferred to the newly raised battalions, their mail was usually over-stamped using a rubber stamp with the new battalion/brigade address. 

 

Based on this, I suspect that the mail remnants were not from Pte Hayne.  

Cheers

RT

[RedCoat]

There were only 3 AIF men called Charles who had the number 3040 -

 

• 3040 Pte Charles Henry Granville Hewitt, he stayed a Pte. He was from NSW and didn't serve in Codford.
• 3040 Pte Charles Henry Ellis, who remained a Pte for the duration of his service. He was from NSW and didn't serve in Codford.
• 3040 Pte Charles Hynes, a Victorian who served at Codford.

 

Hynes enlisted in VIC, where he and his wife lived. He also spent time in Codford in 1916 where he was Court Martialed  - He was serving with 12th Training Battalion at the time possible accounting for the "12th" underneath his name on the envelope. The Postmark also appears to say "Melbourne" around the top and is dated December 1915 but are we confident that it is a date?

 

If that isn't a date, I would say it was sent to him whilst he was serving with the 12th Training Battalion at Codford, the sender giving him the wrong rank. Or if it is a date, that it was sent to him after he embarked overseas and was forwarded to him whilst in Egypt.

 

EDIT - IN HYNES FILE IS A LETTER FROM HIS WIFE, SHE ADDRESS' IT TO 12th BRIGADE, D COMPANY, 46th BATTALION. IT IS ALSO A POSSIBILITY THAT THE "12th" UNDER HIS NAME IS 12th BRIGADE -

 

 

Thoughts? Daniel.

Edited 17 February , 2019 by RedCoat
Update

[shippingsteel]

I think RedCoat is on the right track. The possibilities are not as 'endless' as you may think. The remnant postcard details some very specific information regarding this serviceman. We really need to find out if Charles Hynes ever became a Corporal, or even Temp. Corporal. No doubt after a Court Martial all types of rank would have been stripped, if indeed he ever had Rank.?  

[Chasemuseum]

From his service file, he never held any rank. His service history includes multiple hospital admissions for sickness, with multiple incidents of being AWL whilst at hospital or convalescence. In late 1917 he was evacuated with a gunshot wound to the right knee and hand.  He was returned to Australia and discharged unfit, although the record lists hernia and bronchitis as the reason to return to Australia rather than residual injuries from the GSW. All up his service record is rather unimpressive.

 

This does not rule him out as the recipient of the letter as his family may have believed that he had been promoted to Corporal.

 

Regards the bayonet. Australian Infantry would not have used a P88 bayonet outside Australia as an official issue. At the outbreak of the war, a large quantity of the SMLE No1 MkIII in Australia were sent to the UK as urgent supplies for the home government. For initial training in Australia, some troops would have been issued old stocks of (Long) Lee Enfield rifles and P88 bayonets. These would have been returned to store prior to leaving Australia. That does not mean a soldier could not have "lost" a bayonet and taken it with him. (or more specifically, thieved someone else's bayonet so that poor individual had to manage the loss investigation and probably be charged the replacement cost). Another possible source would have been New Zealand troops in Egypt. The NZEF was initially issued shortened Lee Enfields with P88 bayonets and were using these at Gallipoli. I believe that these were all formally exchanged for SMLE No Mk III in early 1916 while the NZEF was refitting in Egypt prior to transfer to France.  

 

Could the bayonet have been on issue to an Australian Artillery unit ? Unlikely. It's hard to get AIF field artillery photos where the type of their rifles are identifiable. I cannot say I have seen a photo using Lee Enfields rather than SMLE. Certainly artillery had a lower priority call on the supply of small-arms than infantry however by the time that the AIF entered the Western Front, the severe shortages of small arms had passed.

 

Cheers

RT 

[shippingsteel]

I do think it is our man. If you assume that the postcard message was sent by the wife and then look at the handwriting on the letter sent by the wife then the similarities are certainly there. Of course the letter sent was more formal and written somewhat more extravagantly than the name/address on the postcard message, but I still think it is a match.

 

So we have the service number 3040, the name Charles, and the 12th of whatever that are written on both documents. I am no handwriting expert but there is enough similarity in both structure (style) and font to convince me that we have a match. So therefore, same sender = same man, Charles Hynes. 

 

A very interesting little scrap of cardboard that brings another story from the GW back to life. Not all those stories are impressive or noteworthy, most are just very sad and mundane, but thanks to FubarStar for posting the details nonetheless.  

Edited 17 February , 2019 by shippingsteel