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Phil Long

Is it genuine?

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Phil Long

G'Day to the Forum,

I have picked up this bayonet at an auction today and would like any assistance to verify that it is a genuine ENFIELD hooked quillion bayonet.

It fits the nose caps on my SMLEs but some stamps look different to my other 2 P-1907 bayonets, 1 x SANDERSON, 1 x LITHGOW.

I have included all the photos that I took 30 minutes ago, to assist. 

An interesting item to note is the stamped "R.A.F." on the scabbard lip. I assume that it was refurbished between the Wars and issued to the RAF.

CONCERN: the narrow end of the quillion.

 

I am a retired Australian Serviceman, (RAN & RAAF), and an enthusiastic amateur military historian.

 

 

 

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trajan

Hi!

 

Welcome to GWForum!

 

First thoughts - the scabbard looks ok! But those are the wierdest ricasso markings I have ever seen! I am not a specifically P.1907 collector, but I have a few, have handled a few more, and have seen a fair number of images, yet I have never seen anything like these ones.

 

Also, an intact HQ with a clearance hole would be very unusual...

 

Trajan

 

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shippingsteel

Sorry to say, but that be what we call a "reproduction". Definitely NOT a genuine bayonet but something that has made in recent times to LOOK like a valuable historical bayonet. The very odd looking stampings are that unusual as to be an obvious giveaway, and to denote this item as a REPRODUCTION. I just hope that not too much money was parted with in this purchase. All the best Mate.

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Dave66

Very sorry Phil, and I also hope that it wasn't too expensive. 

Even the pommel and release nut are new and have been aged, couple of pics of mine below for comparison.

 

Dave.

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

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zuluwar2006

A fake one. 

I also saw a fake one ersatz Mosin Nagant sold about 1400 euros... But a well made fake...

Look at the inspection stamping, a certainly fake stamp...

I send my condolences to the seller.. 

Regards

D. 

373kk68.jpg

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PhilB

These threads on revealing fakes are very instructive to most members. Maybe time we had a thread devoted entirely to fakes of all kinds?

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trajan

Thanks all fellow Forumites for saying what I didn't really want to say - yes, it is a reproduction or, possibly, a deliberate fake. I have never seen any of the reproductions that certain sites sell as such, or, rather, as replicas. The scabbard, though, looks to be the real thing but I must compare later with my one example of a RAF marked one. 

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Dave66
2 hours ago, PhilB said:

These threads on revealing fakes are very instructive to most members. Maybe time we had a thread devoted entirely to fakes of all kinds?

Totally agree, a fascinating subject in its own right.

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JMB1943

Phil,

 

Welcome to the forum, and sorry that the responses have to be so negative.

It is clearly a reproduction/fake, that I think that you may have a claim against the auction house.

It depends on how the bayonet was explicitly described, but you should certainly request all of your monies back!!!

 

Regards,

JMB

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OLD ROBIN HOOD

Greetings from Sherwood Forest.

This hooked quillion '07 is without doubt very dubious. The scabbard seems right but the bayonet ,I think not.

However the ageing job is first rate so I can understand how it would be possible to fall for it.

The collector who has never made a mistake during his collecting career is very rare indeed.

 

                                                                Old Robin Hood

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RGJDEE

Sadly there are a a lot of rogues out there in the market, last autumn I purchased a v nice JAC 

HQ dated 1910, a nice example all correct except that the original crosspiece ( which had had its quillion removed) was replaced with a new one to include a quillion. Which is a great shame as the original JAC (quillion removed) would have made a fine addition to any collection .

So as always “Buyer Beware”,

we have all been caught out once and are all the more cautious for the experience 😀

As you can see from the second photo the dodgy xpiece is badly shaped when compared to the genuine EFD ( quillion removed) on the right of the photo.

Regards Richard

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reese williams

In the US IMA (International Military Antiques) sells the reproduction HQ shown by the OP. I believe they may be who had them made. They are also distributed through Atlanta Cutlery and some other dealers. They are sold in bright shiny new condition. . Price is the ultimate giveaway, I believe they sold for $79.99.

 

IMO someone has deliberately aged this with the intention of passing it off as original. Cry foul and get your money back.

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zuluwar2006
5 hours ago, reese williams said:

In the US IMA (International Military Antiques) sells the reproduction HQ shown by the OP. I believe they may be who had them made. They are also distributed through Atlanta Cutlery and some other dealers. They are sold in bright shiny new condition. . Price is the ultimate giveaway, I believe they sold for $79.99.

 

IMO someone has deliberately aged this with the intention of passing it off as original. Cry foul and get your money back.

Sir, I will agree with you absolutely... 

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Andrew Upton
Phil Long

Thanks to all who have taken the time to respond to my request. I do have a genuine P-1907 Hook Quillion that I paid much more for than this one.

The bayonet purchased on Saturday only cost $275 and it looks good but I saw another yesterday at the same auction (yes, went back for a 2nd day) that was too much the same in appearance.

The estates that were being auctioned had lots of genuine antiques but it is difficult when there is lots of militaria on offer.

 

The SANDERSON P-1907 has all stampings that I would expect and I bought it from the son of the RAR Reservist who demobbed with it in his kit, post WWII. It also has a frog that is well worn and the scabbard has stampings as well. Paid $1200 for it.

 

Can anyone direct me to any part of this forum that deals with Australian Units on the Western Front?

 

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Edited by Phil Long

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trajan

Nice one! That date, that maker, and the "Sold out of service" mark on the pommel make this a contender for one shipped to Australia before the GW! Is there no serial number on it or the scabbard? Anyway, there is a thread somewhare on these - Shippingsteel from down your way will probably point you in the right direction if nobody else does.

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Andrew Upton
8 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

THIS ONE is their hooked version (sold out)

 

It was a deliberate act on my part - if you look at that link they have changed the markings since, so they do not match the markings on the OP's example in any way. But if you look at the non-HQ example linked in my post they still show it with the near identical and equally weird markings. Eg :thumbsup: :

 

 
 
Click to expand

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British WWI Enfield SMLE P-1907 Bayonet and Scabbard

Edited by Andrew Upton

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Andrew Upton

The other side has been changed somewhat, but the distinctively odd crown is again recognizable:

 

IMG_3586.JPG

 

abb1907ww__5.jpg?v=1505265379 

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trajan

What is still puzzling to me about the one in the opening post is that the scabbard marking for R.A.F. - the 'Royal Air Force' - looks fine on the basis of the one RAF example that I have.... Yes, scabbards and bayonets do move around - but how does a modern reproduction / replica bayonet end up in a genuine scabbard?

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Dave66
1 hour ago, trajan said:

What is still puzzling to me about the one in the opening post is that the scabbard marking for R.A.F. - the 'Royal Air Force' - looks fine on the basis of the one RAF example that I have.... Yes, scabbards and bayonets do move around - but how does a modern reproduction / replica bayonet end up in a genuine scabbard?

I agree with the scabbard being correct, but to me, selling an aged repro with an original scabbard could deliberately be there to help in fooling the novice collector...especially in auction.

 

Dave.

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trajan
5 hours ago, Dave66 said:

I agree with the scabbard being correct, but to me, selling an aged repro with an original scabbard could deliberately be there to help in fooling the novice collector...especially in auction.

 

Dave.

 

That's what I was thinking but that would imply "malice aforethought"...

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Andrew Upton
17 hours ago, trajan said:

What is still puzzling to me about the one in the opening post is that the scabbard marking for R.A.F. - the 'Royal Air Force' - looks fine on the basis of the one RAF example that I have.... Yes, scabbards and bayonets do move around - but how does a modern reproduction / replica bayonet end up in a genuine scabbard?

 

The replica IMA scabbards have improved over time, the very ones were decidedly odd in a number of ways. Unissued WW2 era original scabbards are still plentiful, easily had on Ebay /similar sites, relatively cheap, and of military quality equal to the WW1 period. It could just be that someone bought a repro bayonet/scabbard and decided to upgrade the scabbard.

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reese williams

Trajan, I believe with that piece there was plenty of forethought and it was all malicious.

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