Steve1871 Posted 7 February , 2019 Share Posted 7 February , 2019 A friend of mine was,is sorting through his Werder Bayonets,he sent me pic's I can share with the Forum, The first pic is the most interesting,showing 3 Werder's from the pommel to show the different muzzle rings. the center one is a standard muzzle ring. Notice the one on the left has it's ring high.I do not know exactly why or if for a different rifle. ( THIS IS ONLY MY GUESS - INSTEAD OF MILLING,CUTTING A STEP IN REAR OF POMMEL TO FIT THE M71 RIFLE and 88, THIS MIGHT HAVE BEEN SOMETHING TRIED,A NEW CROSS GUARD INSTEAD OF "stepping" THE POMMEL), just a guess,the ring does look a little high. Now the one on the right is a big mystery, It also has a high muzzle ring,but a new (1870's?) oversized one for a larger barrel.These are Werder bayonets,M69 so should be for a Werder or other "modern " gun type of that era. this one does not have a step cut in pommel .I am stumped,have no idea what it could have been for????Also,all 3,slight variations in mortise cuts The second pic shows variations on scabbards,as well as the 3rd pic, notice the center one.,just slightly curved but slim,more like a M71 scabbard Next pic showing pommels. 5th pis, showing same 3 bayonets,showing the step- cuts on pommel, again,the one on right with larger ring has no cut next pic showing a better side view of different brass Finals,or tips if you want Last pic shows the 3 he is offering me, one has a "tall" muzzle ring,think all 3 different ANY HELP FROM YOU GENT'S WOULD BE GREAT! Is there a book on Werders,any idea what the large muzzle ring would be for. Any ideas and commets would be welcome. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gernika Posted 7 February , 2019 Share Posted 7 February , 2019 Nice trio. Very good scabbards. No idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 February , 2019 Share Posted 7 February , 2019 Yes, nice group there. Really need muzzle-ring diameters to make any headway... If I recall correctly, some Werder Rifles were fitted with M.71 receivers and barrels, and the pommels of the Werder bayonets were ground down in one or two steps to fit these - which left the back of the blade angled towards the muzzle proper, and so the crossgaurds altered also to eliminate any risk of a bullet striking the blade back. Then of course a change with the adoption of the Gew.88, but that meant cutting a recess into the rear of their muzzle-ring to accommodate the barrel-jacket of the Gew.88, which none of these seem to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 7 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2019 Hey Julian, Sorry but no Werder's used any M71 receivers, the converted or new model Werder used M71 barrels and bands, most seem to have been converted, rare to find an original, these conversions were only done on rifles, no recorded examples of done for carbine's , S71 fits right on, and a stepped S69 fits. You say same S69 had rear of guard milled out????? My 2 Bavarian PFM conv. For 88 rifle using new oversized S71 style guards are milled out concave to fit flush with barrel jacket face, but never seen or heard of milling down the back of a S69 guard?? our friend Demitrios say about 14 or 15 variations of steps, milling of S69 pommel's , . Have you seen a pic of this S69 guard milled out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 February , 2019 Share Posted 7 February , 2019 18 minutes ago, Steve1871 said: Hey Julian, Sorry but no Werder's used any M71 receivers, the converted or new model Werder used M71 barrels and bands, most seem to have been converted, rare to find an original, these conversions were only done on rifles, no recorded examples of done for carbine's , S71 fits right on, and a stepped S69 fits. You say same S69 had rear of guard milled out????? My 2 Bavarian PFM conv. For 88 rifle using new oversized S71 style guards are milled out concave to fit flush with barrel jacket face, but never seen or heard of milling down the back of a S69 guard?? our friend Demitrios say about 14 or 15 variations of steps, milling of S69 pommel's , . Have you seen a pic of this S69 guard milled out? Well, I know almost nothing about these ones so happy to be corrected! I was thinking about what Carter wrote - must be in in his volume 4. I do know of an original Werder rifle and bayonet somewhere - I'll try to look it up in my files tomorrow. All that I know of these ones is essentially Carter vol 4, with some bits from German sites, so I am happy to follow the knowldege of others. But the muzzle ring diameters of these ones is needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 7 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2019 My friend is always buisy, he lives in the state of Arizona, but was getting ready for 2 shows in California . , may be few days or a week or so for more pics and maybe gauge those rings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 14 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2019 That first pic must be optical illusion? The MRD on both high rings are about the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 18 February , 2019 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2019 Study the pix's some more, the pic with blades bared, the one on the left, that has the high muzzle ring ( I getting these 3) it does not have a step cut, but am sure now, study pis that the rear of pommel is shaved down instead of a step. Still do not know what it fit? Modified for? Anybody have any ideas?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 February , 2019 Share Posted 18 February , 2019 Sorry, can't help at all... I'll try and look at some German literature on Werders later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
editionsdubrevail Posted 11 April , 2019 Share Posted 11 April , 2019 There were modifications made by Egypt with bayonets bought in surplus. They are recognized by the offset of the blade back which is lower than the socket. sorry for my English. http://www.editionsdubrevail.com/les-baionnettes-allemandes-1830-1898-c2x27348229 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 April , 2019 Share Posted 13 April , 2019 On 11/04/2019 at 19:12, editionsdubrevail said: There were modifications made by Egypt with bayonets bought in surplus. They are recognized by the offset of the blade back which is lower than the socket. sorry for my English. http://www.editionsdubrevail.com/les-baionnettes-allemandes-1830-1898-c2x27348229 That is interesting information! Do you know when Egypt bought these? No problems with your English, by the way! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 15 June , 2019 Author Share Posted 15 June , 2019 Egypt also used a large number of surplus U.S. Remington Yatagan Bayonet's from the rolling block type I did not know they also used M69 Werder Bayonet's . The Werder would be scarcer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 16 May , 2022 Share Posted 16 May , 2022 (edited) There are on bavarian Werders done various changes in time, the presented here bayonets are for M1869 n.M or new model and the barell ring was positioned higher as the normal M1869, the grips are narow and the barell ring starts on 6mm over handle, because the older M1869 Werders have the bayonet adapter on barell directly which was recognised as problematic, the bayonets were lightened in around 1875, same as there was done aptierung for new M71 cartridge, some of them got new buttstock in New Modell configuration, pieces with one step recess on spine could be not attached on Gew71 are typical for the newer Werder 69 system, this changes were realised prior 1882,when the old Werders were brought out of service. Mery Book mentioned use by S71/84 is untypical and was not used in Bavaria as the bayonet was used primarily with Werders , for Gew71 were S1871 made, there are many S71/84 with bavarian stamps used for Gew71/84 and later for Gew88 as prefered by infantry was the short blade bayonet. This all is written in german book from D.Goetz about German Rifles 1871-1945 Steve it would be nice to measure the locking lenght of Your Werder pieces. same as exact dimmension of large MRD should be provided. Edited 16 May , 2022 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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