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Remembered Today:

3rd Battalion Leicestershire Regiment - Russia


Neil Boyle

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I am trying to find out more about what my grandfather experienced in The Great War and specifically when he was in Russia in 1917-1918 with the 3rd Battalion of the Leicestershire Regiment.   He served in the 7th Battalion of the Leicestershire Regiment from 1914-1917.  I have learned a great deal from a post I recently made entitled: " 7th Battalion Leicestershire Regiment 110th Brigade".   In December, 1917 he went to Cadet School and received a commission as a 2nd Lt. in the 3rd Battalion of the Leicestershire Regiment on May 31, 1918.   When he was commissioned as 2nd Lt.  he requested the Leicester Regiment and was placed in the 3rd Battalion.   On his "Protection Certificate (Officer)"  it lists under Theatre of War or Command:  "Russia - 3rd Leicesters",  Unit with which last serving:  "Karaleius (Russian)".   I have a newspaper article similar that says he was an interpreter for the Imperial Army in Russia: stationed in Moscow from 1917 to 1919.  HIs name is Alfred Montague Thompson 11704.

 

Do you know if and where the 3rd Leicesters where in Russia in 1917-1918?   Are there any war diaries or other documents that might show what the 3rd did in Russia in that time period?  Any help is greatly appreciated.    

 

Neil

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Hello Neil

 

3rd Bn Leicesters were a Special Reserve battalion which served only in the UK. According to the list of War Diaries, neither it nor any other battalion of the Leicesters served in Russia. He must have remained on the books of 3rd Bn while detached for duty as an interpreter (or in any other staff role).

 

Ron

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Graeme, Ron,    thanks for your help on this.   Yes, I have pulled my grandfather's records from the NA and I wrote the write-up on him as you on the Royal Leicestershire Regiment  website, but I have hit a dead end on my research on his time in Russia    Ron, your comments are most helpful and validate what I was thinking.  I couldn't find any record of the 3rd Bn serving in Russia.   

 

I am going to keep looking researching the Russia service.   My grandfather told me that he was in the secret service - perhaps that is when he was in Russia.  I have requested records from MI5 and MI6.    I greatly appreciate your help.  Neil 

 

Edited by Neil Boyle
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Forum member Damian Wright has written a book that I would recommend purchasing. Here is a link to a massive thread about it:
 



 

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I have come across service records for men of the AIF who re-enlisted for "special service", which is understood to mean semi-covert involvement in North Russia against the Bolsheviks. Not every man seems to have served in Russia, though. (I can provide examples.)

The Royal Navy and its Accounting Codes can be confusing as to what a given sailor was actually up to. I have seen a similar treatment of soldiers, though. A man at the "Depot" could either be at the depot, or in a hospital and thus taken off the books of his battalion. With regard to the 3rd Battalion, this usually means with the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion but in some cases the soldiers are geographically elsewhere in the UK performing war work at a munitions factory, at a location like Nottingham, Barrow-in-Furness, Birmingham etc.

Whilst my experiences are more with O.R.s than officers, it does seem peculiar that he was not transferred to the General List or similar. I would be interested to read the experiences of those more au fait with the subject of army officers.

Thanks, Keith

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3rd Leicesters did not serve in Russia 1918-20.

 

Your Grandfather would have been attached to 'SYREN Force', NREF as an interpreter. Most of the interpreters for North Russia were commissioned into 'General List' for the purpose however if your Grandfather already held a commission he would have served in Russia as a member of his parent regiment.

 

I made a post on your other thread regarding the Karelian Regiment:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/269464-7th-battalion-leicestershire-regiment-110th-brigade/?tab=comments#comment-2738121

 

Edited by wrightdw
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  • 1 month later...

Hello Damien, 
I have just come across this again.

On the subject of interpreters, Nicholas Edwin Mende, born in Queensland, and long term Petrograd resident has a surviving Officer's service record at Kew. On the file there is reference to both him and a man with the surname Moss. (From memory, the names, service numbers and regiments were stated.) For both of these men, it did state that their English was not so good, but they should be considered for commissions, and to be employed as Russian interpreters. 

Hope this is of use for your ongoing North Russia research.

Regards
Keith

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18 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Hello Damien, 
I have just come across this again.

On the subject of interpreters, Nicholas Edwin Mende, born in Queensland, and long term Petrograd resident has a surviving Officer's service record at Kew. On the file there is reference to both him and a man with the surname Moss. (From memory, the names, service numbers and regiments were stated.) For both of these men, it did state that their English was not so good, but they should be considered for commissions, and to be employed as Russian interpreters. 

Hope this is of use for your ongoing North Russia research.

Regards
Keith

 

Thanks Keith, that is intriguing, there were a few ex-AIF volunteers for service in Russia in 1919 (Russian born) who were appointed as interpreters and posted nominally as Sergeant's in the Middlesex Regiment. I have not heard of any Australian born Russian language interpreters whose English was not so good! That is quite interesting. Cheers, Damien.

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Hi Damien,

 

I think that Mende was of Russian parentage, and that although born in Queensland, his family returned to Russia.

I have a friend who was born in Spain, his parents are German and English. His English pronounciation has a weird accent - more like a Dutch accent - so I can understand that although his parents may have lived in Queensland long enough to get naturalisation, if he subsequently returned to Russia, that his English language skills may have become rusty. It sounds like the same scenario with Moss.

Mende's brother, Eugene Jnr, joined the RAF, and seems to have spent most of his life in Australia. Nicholas Edwin Mende's livelihood seems to have disappeared as a consequence of the revolution. After spending a few years in London, he emigrated to North America. His military service was solely in the British Army, and he attested in London.

Thanks

Keith

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  • 1 year later...


I did try to pinpoint the officers that served with the Karelian Regiment that was formed in North Russia.

I took a look at the army officers seconded to the Karelian Regiment, under the command of Philip James Woods. When I looked at the record for Nicholas Edwin Mende (1895 - 1979) there was no indication that he had left Hull and gone to North Russia in 1919, the land of his forefathers. (He had been living in Petrograd, but came to London in 1916 to enlist. His command of Russian was fluent, but his English let him down, according to the note on the file.) When I looked on the files of three Lieutenants recorded as "W Butler" it was inconclusive as to which of them served under Woods.

I am in the dark as to the definitive Captain Reid.

I did not look at a possible contender for Captain F Smith, I chose not to fight that battle. 

Men identified as being with the Karelia Regiment were:

Lieutenant Colonel Philip James Woods, obviously.
Captain Frederick Leonard Allan

Captain Edwin Christopher Lance

Captain Leopold James Graham-Toler

Captain & Adjutant Reginald Amyas Ackerley Chichester

Acting Captain Stewart Alexander Cowper Forbes
Lieutenant William Little

Second Lieutenant Alfred Charles Thatcher - Army List out of date, still has him in Africa, and nothing in his service file to indicate him having gone to North Russia
Temporary Second Lieutenant Albert Fryer, formerly a Corporal in the Royal Marine Light Infantry

These men have photos in the IWM Collection, and get a mention in a book about Woods.
 

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Private papers-or the possibility thereof- for any of the list?   Graham-Toler is the family name of the Earls of Norbury-anything out there for them?  Similarly, I suspect Chichester may be of the same West Country family as Sir Francis of that ilk.   Anything with Karelia in it must lead back to Louis Spears-anything in his papers at KCL with names on it?  

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 Probably not directly relevant, but the following website by Vladimir Kroupnik, documents Russian Australian connection, including WW1

https://australiarussia.com/myfile1ENFIN.html

One of the links "1000 Russian Anzacs" doesn't seem to work in this version , but works in

 

archived previous version https://web.archive.org/web/20090913181835/http://www.argo.net.au/andre/myfile1ENFIN.html

Search for a Russian Anzac (by clicking on letters of the alphabet)

https://web.archive.org/web/20090913185350/http://www.argo.net.au/andre/RussianAnzacs/index.htm

based on a 2005 book  by Elena Govor, Russian Anzacs in Australian History.

 

Cheers

Maureen

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W Butler, as seen in the Army Lists:

Walter Butler, Born Goole, Yorkshire on 16 July 1893. Serves in the ranks of 12th (Service) Battalion (3rd Hull), East Yorkshire Regiment. Temporary commission 18 December 1917 in The Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. Hospitalised with jaundice in December 1918.

Reference: WO 339/100996

Title: Army Officers' Service records, First World War

Description: 2/Lieutenant Walter BUTLER The King's Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry).



William Butler, born Bedfont, Staines registration district on 7 May 1888. Enlists as a Boy in the Middlesex Regiment as a Boy on 2 September 1903. Temporary commission on 1 May 1918. Court martialled in Germany on 4 June 1919.

Reference: WO 374/11460

Title: Army Officers' Service records, First World War

Description: 2/Lieutenant William BUTLER. The Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex Regiment).



William Butler born Pontefract on 13 November 1894. Enlisted in the West Riding Regiment on 20 January 1915. Temporary commission on 30 January 1918. In hospital at Hemel Hempstead on 19 September 1919.
Reference: WO 374/11458

Title: Officers' Service records, First World War

Description: Lieutenant William BUTLER. The Duke of Wellington's (West Riding Regiment).

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There seem to be a couple more William Butler candidates on Discovery. 

 

image.png.fa53a59cd69d979faae901633c540da1.png

 

image.png.f12364bf558a3f3dd6749fad54e41cba.png

 

   It is awkward when there are candidates with the same name, I grant you- Oh, that there was a system similar to that portrayed in "Zulu"  with men of the same surname in the South Wales Borderers-  Perhaps  "Butler 42" etc.

   I have discounted the Lt-Col of the RAMC with that name. 

A very small clue amongst officer files is to look for those where the end date of service is after 1919-which seems to be the minimum.  Trouble is that the Karelia officers are likely to have served beyond 1920-  MOD records of held personnel files????

 

......and several more Walter Butler candidates.  (A long shot- I believe there are personnel records out there for the Tans- some of the odd-bods may subsequently have served. My experience is that the slightly -how can we put it politely- "irregular" career paths often go from one controversial arena to another. Given that the raiser of the regiment became a Unionist MP-and also that Spears was Irish by background. Just a thought.

 

Edited by Guest
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Looking back at my notes, I saw the following:

Major W Butler, RAMC

Temporary Second Lieutenant W Butler, East Yorkshire Regiment, commissioned 5 March 1919 (too late?), Army List page 1048e

WO1 W Butler, promoted 2 May 1917, Army List page 2295a, 3rd Battalion South Lancs

WO1 W Butler, promoted 2 May 1917, Army List page 2298f, 9th Battalion Royal Warwicks

 

There were about three dozen F Smith contenders, so I decided to go no further with researching him.

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